ruthless Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 If you had a dog who was a pain in the ass to train at obedience, would you persevere or find something else to do together? I know Angel isn't untrainable, but compared to Chopper she's such a slow learner. I'm sure if I put more time into her training we could eventually graduate from Class 1 to Class 2 [and maybe even beyond!], but I don't think she has any interest. Since Eileen posted in the other thread about her being a good therapy dog I've been thinking a lot about it and how she'd probably enjoy it a lot more than obedience. Hmmm ... what to do ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 How is she a pain in the ass? I sometimes get frustrated with Diesel. He shows flashes of brilliance where he will work really well and be really motivated, then a few sessions later he will be soooo slow and unmotivated! Maybe I ask for too much too soon? Or I use different body language or am more inhibited at times? Anyway, the result is frustrating! I am at least using him as a learning dog, for both the things I did right and the things I did wrong. It was the first time I taught a flip/military finish, did that well! And first time I tried food spitting, and teaching a separate front/close recall. He loves both these exercises. Stuffed the retrieve though and heeling is inconsistent, good on his motivated days, not so good on his unmotivated days. But if you both enjoy something else more, go for it! If I had the time I would like to try more tracking with Diesel, he has really enjoyed the little we have done. He enjoys the little bit of agility I have done with him (more than obedience) but being accident prone I am not going to do it seriously with him! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 Hmmm ... what to do ... Why don't you do the "something else" and combine it with your training aims. Might prove to be good motivation for her Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruthless Posted July 28, 2008 Author Share Posted July 28, 2008 How is she a pain in the ass? No focus is the biggest problem I suppose. When we get to training I have to walk her around the grounds until class starts cause if we're standing waiting she'll pull to get to other dogs/people or keep jumping on me and scratching my legs. We've been in Class 1 for about 2 years, on and off. In class she won't sit beside me, always diagonally. Her automatic sits are really rare, slow at best. She almost always breaks her sit stays and drop stays. She almost always sits in a stand. If it's a stand for exam she'll walk towards and often jump on the "examiner" as soon as they come near. If there's a restless dog in our group she's constantly distracted by it. The list is endless! I question why I go there. Sometimes I enjoy it, but mostly I feel like it's a waste of time as we're getting nowhere. I do no training during the week, apart from generally trying to reinforce her manners around the house. I keep meaning to, but with four dogs and a husband who often works late, I find it hard. They're in runs all day and I think it's mean to come home and then crate them while I do one on one training. Excuses? Maybe! I've kind of accepted that we may never progress and going to training is good socialisation for her, if nothing else! I also like giving her some one on one attention as I feel somewhat bad about ruining her world by bringing Chopper and Trixie into it Why don't you do the "something else" and combine it with your training aims. Might prove to be good motivation for her Good thinking! Clearly it can't make her any worse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staff'n'Toller Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 Sounds as though she is possibly quite anxious at training with the behaviours you describe, maybe that is why you aren't getting the best out of her. If I were you I would look at doing something different, my best advice would be to find a clicker tricks/animal actors/fun agility type of course where you can just go do some 'fun' training and there is no pressure on you or her to perform. I find that there are Staffords that you can train and train non-stop and they will perform, Staffords that shut down after a few exercises and Staffords that just plain don't see the point in obedience. Mel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruthless Posted July 28, 2008 Author Share Posted July 28, 2008 She is a bit of a nervous nelly. She pants the whole way in the car. After training on Sun I walked a few hundred metres with her off lead before she decided she was having none of it and ran back to the car. But there's times when she's absolutely fearless as well, like when she's playing fetch or at Lure Coursing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denis_c Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 I would be looking at difficulties with anxiety, training methods, and what what part you play in this mix. If you feel that the club is un rewarding, too, then you might need to look at something else. I am a litle suprised as to why you have been in this class for so long, and the club accepted it. You actually have a couple of strong reinforcers that could well be used for obedience work, her desire to engage you, and her interest in other dogs and people. Many people have worked with less. I helped get an American Bulldog to track whose only interest to start with was the movement of a flock of birds a wee way away. He now tracks so well (for him) that TQT is a possibility and has got used to other reinforcers such as food and his owner.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruthless Posted July 28, 2008 Author Share Posted July 28, 2008 It's a pretty big club. I'd be surprised if anyone knows my name or my dog's name. I also train at another club which is much smaller. I might bring her there next weekend to see if the smaller classes work better for her. It's worth a shot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayreovi Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 Are you looking at competing in obedience with her at all? If not i personally would either take a break from obedience for awhile, or give it up altogether. Much rather spend my time and energy on something that we both enjoy then feel crappy and miserable at the end of a training session. Some dogs i personally think just dont like obedience regardless of training methods and rewards. If you think she would enjoy therapy, give it a go Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruthless Posted July 28, 2008 Author Share Posted July 28, 2008 No plans to compete. The reasons I take her are: 1. To get her out of the house/our area, a change to her day to day routine 2. It's a chance for her to be an only dog and have all my attention 3. To be around other dogs in a controlled environment 4. For her to get some discipline As a Therapy Dog I suppose she'd get all that except # 3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staff'n'Toller Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 (edited) Angel can have a very fulfilling life without having to be around a huge group of other dogs each week. Actually it does sound like this is actually hindering her learning and working relationship with you at this time- not helping it. Explore some other avenues and find what she likes to do. ETA: If you are having trouble with discipline, then a private trainer would probably be more suited to Angel because they can tailor sessions to work on what you want and experiment with different reinforcers in an environment that Angel is comfortable in. Edited July 28, 2008 by Staff'n'Toller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruthless Posted July 28, 2008 Author Share Posted July 28, 2008 I'll be happy not to have to get up at 7.30 on Sunday mornings anymore! I'm not too worried about her discipline. Her recall is crap, but if I have a squeaky toy she'll come running 99% of the time. She's cheeky as all hell, but that's ok, she's not doing anything particularly bad. She's not destructive or aggressive. I'll explore some other avenues and see how we go. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poocow Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 OH gets that way with Toppy and I can't blame him. At agility I handle Darcy and he takes Top. Top has no attention span, and in the middle of a run through of a course will freak out and run away to find me or Darcy. He has flashes of brilliance when hes focused on doing the tunnel or whatever, then his head just asplodes and hes off Toppy really isn't very bright, we're not sure why as we don't have his whole history as we got him at 18mths. OH just finds it really frustrating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoemonster Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 Really obedience classes dont do a whole lot for a dogs obedience, they are only there to teach you how to teach your dog, so if you know how to teach her, there is no reason you cant do the obedience somewhere else, or even at club but off to the side Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staff'n'Toller Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 I'll be happy not to have to get up at 7.30 on Sunday mornings anymore! See there's your problem!! What Staffy wants to get up at 7.30 in the morning??!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 If you do no training during the week then you really can't expect the dog to improve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonymc Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 In any situation in life, firstly we must be totally honest with ourselves and be prepared to look at the role we are playing.Also when we are not getting the result we want,we change the approach till we do get the result we want. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reddii Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 If you had a dog who was a pain in the ass to train at obedience, would you persevere or find something else to do together?I know Angel isn't untrainable, but compared to Chopper she's such a slow learner. I'm sure if I put more time into her training we could eventually graduate from Class 1 to Class 2 [and maybe even beyond!], but I don't think she has any interest. Since Eileen posted in the other thread about her being a good therapy dog I've been thinking a lot about it and how she'd probably enjoy it a lot more than obedience. Hmmm ... what to do ... I haven't read any one else's response just yet, but for what it's worth if one of my dogs really hates something or even just doesn't enjoy it then I'll stick with it for a while and try to find the 'key' and if that fails then I'll just give it a miss. My girl was pretty good at obedience, but just didn't enjoy it - she was purely working to please me, not because she wanted to. We don't do it any more and do agility, frisbee and flyball instead. On the flip side my boy isn't all that good at agility, but loves it when we do a free flowing course/run and is getting better all the time so we stick with it. To me it's about what your dog enjoys and whether you can live with them given how well trained they are, not about what you want to achieve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denis_c Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 Yesterday my answer was a little incomplete, and is one of the resons as to why i hate giving specific advice over the internet. We are fairly progressive at our club and try and intervene within the first couple of weeks with dog handler pairs who aren't doing so well. These could be dogs that are very timid or boisterous. We then take them a distance away form the class and work with them one on one with experienced instructors if they are available. We then try and reintroduce them back into the class. If we can't then we refer them on. We do not leave dogs that are bouncing around as much as we can in class.You are talking about a very small number of dogs that need referring on. But my own dog has a noise phobia. A noise phobia is where emotion overtakes cognition and results in what to humans is an inappropiate response to a stimuli. When she starts to go into this state, the first sign that I have is that she appears to not understand very simple commands. We get panting , then freezing and if I have let it go this far I urgently need to intervene. But above all, I try very hard to control her exposure to the stimulus and have systematically desensitised her. Some of what you have stated appear to be symptons of anxiety, but I would not say this unless I could see your dog. A lot of behaviours that we in the past would have labeled as :"too friendlt etc" respond very very well if we treat them as anxious response to the environment around them. A couple of very good resources are "Control Unleashed" by Leslie McDavitt and Get Connected by Brenda Alloff. I personally do NOT go into classes with my dog but she is a very good performer in the ring and on the track, and I wouldn't go into the average square bashing class either. They are a waste of time on any acount and i just politely excuse myself. But all this is about taking responsibility for your dog and making the best decisions you can for your dog a very hard thing to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jey Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 What a wonderful sounding clas/club. It would be great if they were all like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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