How Do You Know When Your Dog Needs To Go Up A Level In Correction?

[Jessca]

Hi Dolers, i was just thinking, as a few people have also asked me.

how do you know when your dog needs to go up a level in correction.

for example -

flat collar to martingale

martingale to check chain/ choker

check chain / choker to PP collar.

ect

thanks guys my main reason for adding this is, kaiser is ten months old and is starting to go through that teenage stage, he is not really responding to check chain corrections anymore, unless i really correct him, which i dont like doing. i am worried i am going to hurt his neck but he is not really responding to anything when he gets excited.

for example today they had the agility equipment at training and at first he had his flat collar on and nearly pulled my shoulder blade out of its socket trying to get on the ramp (i have weak shoulders) so i put his choker back on and it made no difference. i am kinda considering trying a PP collar, but because i live in vic,its kinda hard just to "try" one for a lesson.

i dont really think kaiser will need a PP for long just whilst he's in this stage. does anyone have any suggestions of something else that may work other than a PP, as i have weak shoulders i can correct but if he pulls when im not expecting it, it can be quite painful.

Thanks again DOLers.

Jessca

[haven]

An effective correction is one that results in a change of behaviour. It may not necessarily be that you need to 'up' the level of correction but perhaps change the method. In my experience it depends on the dog, the behaviour and the current situation as to whether a verbal or physical punisher is most effective, or if I may do better by ignoring the dog or sin binning them etc.

Check your timing too, this will affect the level of correction required and have a big impact on effectiveness because the dog needs to link the correction with the behaviour.

It is probably also appropriate to reduce the level of distraction under which you are training if you are finding this is the major issue. Constantly putting him in the situation where he is going to fail and cop a correction because he isn't capable yet of working at that level of distraction is bad juju in many ways.

Specifically for agility, IMHO there are much better and more appropriate ways to teach him to go slow over the equipment than using a punisher, especially a physical one, which could result in an injury or him forming a negative association with using the equipment.

[Jessca]

An effective correction is one that results in a change of behaviour. It may not necessarily be that you need to 'up' the level of correction but perhaps change the method. In my experience it depends on the dog, the behaviour and the current situation as to whether a verbal or physical punisher is most effective, or if I may do better by ignoring the dog or sin binning them etc.

Check your timing too, this will affect the level of correction required and have a big impact on effectiveness because the dog needs to link the correction with the behaviour.

It is probably also appropriate to reduce the level of distraction under which you are training if you are finding this is the major issue. Constantly putting him in the situation where he is going to fail and cop a correction because he isn't capable yet of working at that level of distraction is bad juju in many ways.

Specifically for agility, IMHO there are much better and more appropriate ways to teach him to go slow over the equipment than using a punisher, especially a physical one, which could result in an injury or him forming a negative association with using the equipment.

thanks for your help.

hes pretty good with distractions during training, and i dont correct him for being distracted, i either jingle his lead or withhold a treat reward.

the problem is mainly when he gets too excited, ie other dogs (playtime) and agility. although i do love that he is excited to do the agility, he just needs to learn to wait his turn.

i was reading that with a PP collar a level 9 correction on a choker only needs a level 3 correction on a PP, is this correct??

[haven]

i was reading that with a PP collar a level 9 correction on a choker only needs a level 3 correction on a PP, is this correct??

That's a bit of a sweeping statement because the effectiveness of a correction depends on so many factors, not simply the type of collar you are using.

[Kavik]

You shouldn't be using a correction collar on agility equipment, as it is dangerous if they slip and catch it on something. Most you should use is a martingale. I do my agility work off lead. If he is getting too distracted waiting his turn, maybe increase your distance to the equipment to an area you have more control. This is a good time to work on your focus work too :D

If the issue is speed on the equipment (not sure if it is on the equipment or waiting your turn you have problems?) there are certainly better ways rather than correcting him to do this.

[Gayle.]

i am kinda considering trying a PP collar, but because i live in vic,its kinda hard just to "try" one for a lesson.

Are you a member of an obedience club? If so, ask one of the instructors there for a few pointers on how best to proceed with corrections at the moment.

[Erny]

Jessca .... by the sounds of it to me you need to work on 'obedience' and 'agility' separately.

When you are certain your dog understands lead manners and the other obedience skills, you could gradually increase distractions until the distraction of the agility environment is appropriate.

If your dog goes to pull you to and on the equipment, quit him. IE Avoid permitting him to negotiate the obstacle if he has been 'rude' enough to ignore your prior training. Let NOT doing agility be a punishment in itself, seeing as he loves it so much. You can leave the arena and wait it out for a bit, then try the same obstacle again. If he pulls you toward it, repeat the process one more time, if you wish. But do not permit him to reach HIS goal when he 'breaks the rules/guidelines/training' you've clearly set for him. If you're consistent, he should get the drift of it soon enough.

We often don't use the 'punishment' of not doing agility (or whichever other chosen activity) in these circumstances, simply because we figure we've made the effort to be there and want to do it ourselves. So OUR desire to satisfy ourselves becomes a reinforcer to our dogs' undesirable behaviour.

PS - I agree that correctional collars should not be worn for agility, for the safety reasons mentioned by other/s.

Edited July 19, 2008 by Erny

[Gayle.]

how do you know when your dog needs to go up a level in correction.

for example -

flat collar to martingale

martingale to check chain/ choker

check chain / choker to PP collar.

I've just been thinking about the opening post and it dawned on me that most people wouldn't go UP in corrections, but go "down". The aim of any of these tools is to train your dog, so once trained you really shouldn't need to use more correction, your aim would be to use less, I would think.

[dogdude]

I wouldn't have thought a club would allow a puppy on agility equipment, particulary one not proofed under distraction... but anyway, I would also be thinking about why he reacts that way in the first place.

Is it that he is excited by watching the other dogs doing agility, and perceiving it as "doggy play" (with dogs, and not handler?).

Be aware that too much value put on "doggy play" can be a real pain to compete against while training under distraction, particulary with males. Make you (or something you own) be the centre of the dogs universe.

[Erny]

I've just been thinking about the opening post and it dawned on me that most people wouldn't go UP in corrections, but go "down". The aim of any of these tools is to train your dog, so once trained you really shouldn't need to use more correction, your aim would be to use less, I would think.

This commonly occurs if prior corrections have been ineffective, thereby desensitising to them. I don't view changing collars (eg. to something like the PPCollar) as an "up" in correction. Rather, it's a "different" correction and often achieves the desired responses so that rewards can be delivered more frequently. But in the case of corrections (and this applies to verbal corrections as well) I agree, whichever collar is used, the correction should be so that it is effective, using minimum impact for maximum behaviour change. If frequent corrections are required for the same behaviour, something is wrong and the first thing I check on is the handler's lead handling skill.

Sometimes though, some dogs don't perceive certain corrections from certain other collars sufficiently enough - even when well and appropriately delivered, and a change of collar to something effective may serve in the dog's bests interests.

Edited July 19, 2008 by Erny

[Jessca]

You shouldn't be using a correction collar on agility equipment, as it is dangerous if they slip and catch it on something. Most you should use is a martingale. I do my agility work off lead. If he is getting too distracted waiting his turn, maybe increase your distance to the equipment to an area you have more control. This is a good time to work on your focus work too :D

If the issue is speed on the equipment (not sure if it is on the equipment or waiting your turn you have problems?) there are certainly better ways rather than correcting him to do this.

i never have before now but the instructers said the dogs are 'advanced' enough to if they need it.

i dont like using one as the fear of it getting caught.

kaiser runs up to the equpment then runs over them, what i've been trying to do is hold him round the chest when he goes up the ramp then hold him as he walks along the plank so that he slows down, then he has to stop and either stand or sit on the plank, then swalk down the other side.

i am kinda considering trying a PP collar, but because i live in vic,its kinda hard just to "try" one for a lesson.

Are you a member of an obedience club? If so, ask one of the instructors there for a few pointers on how best to proceed with corrections at the moment.

my obedience club told me to speak to K9 Force.

i've been doing everything my club said, but i thought i'd ask around here and get some more opinions.

Jessca .... by the sounds of it to me you need to work on 'obedience' and 'agility' separately.

When you are certain your dog understands lead manners and the other obedience skills, you could gradually increase distractions until the distraction of the agility environment is appropriate.

If your dog goes to pull you to and on the equipment, quit him. IE Avoid permitting him to negotiate the obstacle if he has been 'rude' enough to ignore your prior training. Let NOT doing agility be a punishment in itself, seeing as he loves it so much. You can leave the arena and wait it out for a bit, then try the same obstacle again. If he pulls you toward it, repeat the process one more time, if you wish. But do not permit him to reach HIS goal when he 'breaks the rules/guidelines/training' you've clearly set for him. If you're consistent, he should get the drift of it soon enough.

We often don't use the 'punishment' of not doing agility (or whichever other chosen activity) in these circumstances, simply because we figure we've made the effort to be there and want to do it ourselves. So OUR desire to satisfy ourselves becomes a reinforcer to our dogs' undesirable behaviour.

PS - I agree that correctional collars should not be worn for agility, for the safety reasons mentioned by other/s.

i 100% agree with that one of the instructers 'suggested' to put it on.

i like that, i'll read this over a few times then try it on Kaiser next time the agility is at our centre.

I wouldn't have thought a club would allow a puppy on agility equipment, particulary one not proofed under distraction... but anyway, I would also be thinking about why he reacts that way in the first place.

Is it that he is excited by watching the other dogs doing agility, and perceiving it as "doggy play" (with dogs, and not handler?).

Be aware that too much value put on "doggy play" can be a real pain to compete against while training under distraction, particulary with males. Make you (or something you own) be the centre of the dogs universe.

our club starts agility from around 4-5 months, kaisers now 10 months, although hes only been on it a couple of times.

i dont think he's excited by the other dogs because he doesnt care about the equipment till where about to use it, unlike some other dogs there that see the other dogs on it and cry. kaiser doesnt; seem to notice it till where right there.

the moment i bring out food or a toy he forgets about the equipment, is this what you mean??

I've just been thinking about the opening post and it dawned on me that most people wouldn't go UP in corrections, but go "down". The aim of any of these tools is to train your dog, so once trained you really shouldn't need to use more correction, your aim would be to use less, I would think.

This commonly occurs if prior corrections have been ineffective, thereby desensitising to them. I don't view changing collars (eg. to something like the PPCollar) as an "up" in correction. Rather, it's a "different" correction and often achieves the desired responses so that rewards can be delivered more frequently. But in the case of corrections (and this applies to verbal corrections as well) I agree, whichever collar is used, the correction should be so that it is effective, using minimum impact for maximum behaviour change. If frequent corrections are required for the same behaviour, something is wrong and the first thing I check on is the handler's lead handling skill.

Sometimes though, some dogs don't perceive certain corrections from certain other collars sufficiently enough - even when well and appropriately delivered, and a change of collar to something effective may serve in the dog's bests interests.

this is waht i meant, but the going up in corecctions did not really have much to do with me, a couple of poeple had asked me this and i thought about it, and thought that i'd like to know.

i also think i worded it wroong, maybe when do you need to change your dogs corrections, may have been a better way of putting it.

thanks guys for all your suggestions and help.

Jess

[Kavik]

Is this agility for just socialisation and control or for competition agility? Cause you may do different things depending on your goal.

I have been going to a few classes with Canine Fun Sports, who train for competition agility. Quite different to other clubs I have been to in some of their approach, which is to let the dog make choices about where to go and only reward correct ones. Eg we did the dog walk for the first time (have ramps at home though so he knows basic idea) - I was told to just let him go, if he jumps off early he just doesn't get rewarded, and not to be right next to him so he doesn't rely on me being there. Was really interesting.

Yet I know clubs that incorporate some agility into their obedience may stress the control aspect over equipment rather than fast and independent movewment over equipment you stress for competition.

[Jessca]

Is this agility for just socialisation and control or for competition agility? Cause you may do different things depending on your goal.

I have been going to a few classes with Canine Fun Sports, who train for competition agility. Quite different to other clubs I have been to in some of their approach, which is to let the dog make choices about where to go and only reward correct ones. Eg we did the dog walk for the first time (have ramps at home though so he knows basic idea) - I was told to just let him go, if he jumps off early he just doesn't get rewarded, and not to be right next to him so he doesn't rely on me being there. Was really interesting.

Yet I know clubs that incorporate some agility into their obedience may stress the control aspect over equipment rather than fast and independent movewment over equipment you stress for competition.

the agility is for confidence not compition so it doesn't matter how they do it.

that sound like a really good way of doing it, especially for a shy/scared dog.

[Kavik]

Kaos was just really keen to get the reward and tried to cheat and take the shortcut at first :D which of course didn't get paid. He did it properly and fast in the end.