Bad Recall :s

[Luke GSP]

Without reading the other posts (so I may repeat something someone has said) I teach recall by making myself the centre of the dogs universe. Food comes from me, walks, cuddles, punishment, rules, direction, affection and all the rest.

This along with structured obedience type recall means that my dogs come to me when I call. If I am unsure, I don't unclip the lead.

What you have typed is very interesting but my concern with that phylosophy is that very few people can control their dogs environment enough to stop any outside stimuli that might trigger a drive response. If that dog responds to that drive stimuli by deciding to run and then gains drive satisfaction what is to say that at some point the dog might have to decide whether or not the payment you are offering (food,walks, cuddles etc) might not be worth as much as the "potential satisfaction of satisfying it's previously unchecked drive just one more time?

Surely then, by your last statement you are saying that your recall is not 100%? Not having a go, I am just trying to gauge what you feel is acceptable. IMO my dogs must come EVERY time I call them, no if's no buts.If a dog comes 99% of the time that means that you have a 1% chance that the one time it is running to the road in front of that truck is the one time your call might fail. I find the subject of recall interesting as most people say that their dog is really reliable and then put a proviso there such as "as long as there aren't birds/people/other dogs/cars etc" that to me is not reliable. I might add that until a few months ago I was also one of those people with a proviso.

What did you do differently to change this?

Spoke to Steve at K9 Force and put a regime in place that has literally changed our lives in as far as what we can and cannot do with our dogs. Before talking to him I would not have dared take our male off the lead as he would have locked on to any moving object and ran,ran,ran. Steve talks to you in a way you can understand and then suggests a solution that works for both you and your dog, he also explains the science behind it all if you want to get that in depth about it.

Well if only Steve from K9 were in Vic Id get his help in a flash! Heard great things, training in drive is one thing Id love to do with our GSD...

He does correspondence (spelling )courses as well you know. Give him a cal l I am sure he could help.

Edited July 27, 2008 by Luke GSP

[NoodleNut]

The recall is just like any other behaviour in that if it has been reinforced adequately (and I'm thinking here only of positive reinforcement) it will be done again.

Remember that the definition of *reinforce* as it applies to training animals is that it makes a behaviour more likely to be repeated in the future. If the behaviour you want (staying with you or coming back when you ask) isn't occurring, that tells you it isn't being reinforced (and that there is no fault on the part of your dog in failing to learn it).

Hi! I have just searched the site for this exact topic and this thread appeared.

We have a 7 month old Hungarian Puli with terrible recall .. her sits, drops, roll overs, shake hands (I know the last two have little importance ) are great ... she loves chasing and retrieving balls/dumbells and is very social with humans and other dogs ... all fabulous traits and we are very proud of her and our efforts in this regard. Fully crate trained at night and toilet trained so we have to look on the bright side of her development except for this one 'thorn in our side'.

I have tried recall on an 11m tracking lead with cheese/cabana/cooked chicken ... etc etc etc as the reward .... result :....."Sorry mum ain't coming as other things are more interesting" ... yep, reeled her in ... again and again.............. and again ..... no sign of improvement (just sore wrists from me reeling her in . Her loose lead walking is coming along nicely may I say .... no food rewards only verbal commands and praise and she looks up at me in the face (yep from under all of that hair) as if to say "Am I doing good mum?"..... just the recall is not working. Can I add the loose lead walking is also getting better with distraction of other dogs too which is great. By the way recall in the cricket nets ot in the basketball courts at obedience she is A+++!! Mind you she gets ultra hyped when every other dog goes before her! She wants to run when they are called .... to THEIR owner! I think the running dog is the drive factor for her though ..... she must think the other breeds are 'deformed sheep' ready for her to herd!!

So,...ideas for the positive 'reinforcement' please? Food is of no interest to her.

I so want her to be able to play off lead down at the park .... she is a great little girl that is very social and LOVES to run.

[Luke GSP]

The recall is just like any other behaviour in that if it has been reinforced adequately (and I'm thinking here only of positive reinforcement) it will be done again.

Remember that the definition of *reinforce* as it applies to training animals is that it makes a behaviour more likely to be repeated in the future. If the behaviour you want (staying with you or coming back when you ask) isn't occurring, that tells you it isn't being reinforced (and that there is no fault on the part of your dog in failing to learn it).

Hi! I have just searched the site for this exact topic and this thread appeared.

We have a 7 month old Hungarian Puli with terrible recall .. her sits, drops, roll overs, shake hands (I know the last two have little importance ) are great ... she loves chasing and retrieving balls/dumbells and is very social with humans and other dogs ... all fabulous traits and we are very proud of her and our efforts in this regard. Fully crate trained at night and toilet trained so we have to look on the bright side of her development except for this one 'thorn in our side'.

I have tried recall on an 11m tracking lead with cheese/cabana/cooked chicken ... etc etc etc as the reward .... result :....."Sorry mum ain't coming as other things are more interesting" ... yep, reeled her in ... again and again.............. and again ..... no sign of improvement (just sore wrists from me reeling her in . Her loose lead walking is coming along nicely may I say .... no food rewards only verbal commands and praise and she looks up at me in the face (yep from under all of that hair) as if to say "Am I doing good mum?"..... just the recall is not working. Can I add the loose lead walking is also getting better with distraction of other dogs too which is great. By the way recall in the cricket nets ot in the basketball courts at obedience she is A+++!! Mind you she gets ultra hyped when every other dog goes before her! She wants to run when they are called .... to THEIR owner! I think the running dog is the drive factor for her though ..... she must think the other breeds are 'deformed sheep' ready for her to herd!!

So,...ideas for the positive 'reinforcement' please? Food is of no interest to her.

I so want her to be able to play off lead down at the park .... she is a great little girl that is very social and LOVES to run.

I would talk to a good trainer about drive training, if your dog is of the right persuasion prey drive would be more alluring than food.

[WalandLibby]

I have tried recall on an 11m tracking lead with cheese/cabana/cooked chicken ... etc etc etc as the reward .... result :....."Sorry mum ain't coming as other things are more interesting" ... yep, reeled her in ... again and again.............. and again ..... no sign of improvement (just sore wrists from me reeling her in .

Mind you she gets ultra hyped when every other dog goes before her! She wants to run when they are called .... to THEIR owner! I think the running dog is the drive factor for her though ..... she must think the other breeds are 'deformed sheep' ready for her to herd!!

So,...ideas for the positive 'reinforcement' please?

As far as reinforcement options, some possibilities include you running, especially if you zig zag and (pretend to) deliberately run away from her. This will often really switch a herding dog on (try to behave like a sheep or a running dog). I do this with my dog, even if I haven't actually called him, wait for him to get almost to me then take off. I wouldn't do too many zig zags though, some herding dogs get a bit snappy if their 'sheep' doesn't do what it's asked. You can also use it before she approaches you to establish an association of 'come'=fast running away owner(=big game).

Does she like toys? because as she comes up to you, showing her a ball and then throwing it in the direction she's running (so that she doesn't have to slow down to follow it) can speed up the recall.

Do you quickly release her once she comes to you most times? Because that is often the best reward possible.

When you put a food reward in front of her nose, does she usually take it?

And after you use the lead to get her to come to you, how do you then try to reward her?

I actually wonder whether there is something else going on here, and that rather than it simply being that you haven't yet found things that genuinely reinforce her behaviour, she has not actually had a chance to learn the behaviour yet. Reeling a dog in for eg will be counter-productive in most cases - it doesn't teach them the behaviour you want and makes them more likely to avoid coming close. I would be working in a structured way, starting by associating a position close to you with the 'come' cue and rewards (of whatever kind), gradually adding distance, calling from short distances and when she's likely to respond so that you build a strong reinforcement history, working on this behaviour under calm conditions (not when she's at the park), etc.

Hope this helps.

Edited July 30, 2008 by WalandLibby

[NoodleNut]

quote]

As far as reinforcement options, some possibilities include you running, especially if you zig zag and (pretend to) deliberately run away from her. This will often really switch a herding dog on (try to behave like a sheep or a running dog). I do this with my dog, even if I haven't actually called him, wait for him to get almost to me then take off. I wouldn't do too many zig zags though, some herding dogs get a bit snappy if their 'sheep' doesn't do what it's asked. You can also use it before she approaches you to establish an association of 'come'=fast running away owner(=big game).

I like this idea .. I have tried running away from her and she does come running after me ... obviously appealing to her drive.

Does she like toys? because as she comes up to you, showing her a ball and then throwing it in the direction she's running (so that she doesn't have to slow down to follow it) can speed up the recall.

Yes she has a couple of balls she enjoys chasing but I would have to have two and one on me at all times as she is not reliable in coming back ... see my response to food quesiton ....

Do you quickly release her once she comes to you most times? Because that is often the best reward possible.

Yes

When you put a food reward in front of her nose, does she usually take it?

Usually not interested at all and I have used LOTS of things and also not given her food before obedience or outings to try and increase the food drive but to no avail.I tried giving her food rewards for recall with a ball that she loves to chase but she often turns up her nose and still does not come .. I turn on my heels and go inside .. no game unless she comes .... she ususally comes runing then if she thinks I am not going to play with her .. she then drops te ball and I can go back to playing if not I disappear inside .. I do not chase her.

And after you use the lead to get her to come to you, how do you then try to reward her?

Usually with food, verbal praise and 100% of the time throw her ball for her to run and get and bring back ... not always successful though.

I actually wonder whether there is something else going on here, and that rather than it simply being that you haven't yet found things that genuinely reinforce her behaviour, she has not actually had a chance to learn the behaviour yet. Reeling a dog in for eg will be counter-productive in most cases - it doesn't teach them the behaviour you want and makes them more likely to avoid coming close. I would be working in a structured way, starting by associating a position close to you with the 'come' cue and rewards (of whatever kind), gradually adding distance, calling from short distances and when she's likely to respond so that you build a strong reinforcement history, working on this behaviour under calm conditions (not when she's at the park), etc.

Yes, we work on these tasks int he back yard or at the local school oval without other dogs/people around to distract her.

[WalandLibby]

About using toys as rewards, I wouldn't worry to much at this stage of her training whether she brings them back. To try to get them back if she doesn't bring them of her own accord risks making the experience a punishing rather than a rewarding one, and defeats the purpose. If I was using a ball as a reward for your dog I'd probably just throw it and let her decide what to do with it.

I turn on my heels and go inside .. no game unless she comes .... she ususally comes runing then if she thinks I am not going to play with her .. she then drops te ball and I can go back to playing if not I disappear inside .. I do not chase her.[/b]

Even if the human in a situation like this understands the contingencies as 'you (dog) must come when I (person) call or I will X (in this case, go inside)' the dog may still not understand that there is any relationship between what it does, and what the person does. If this is the case, then the dog will not be in a position to change it's behaviour, as it won't even occur to it that by doing something different, it could cause it's person to act in a way that it would prefer (or alternatively, if it did change it's behaviour to try to get it's owner to do something different, it would be likely to chose doggy strategies such as jumping up, licking etc, rather than the kind of things we actually want it to do).

Working on this behaviour in the places you describe is a good idea, but her behaviour (in not having learned what you've been trying to teach) tells us that she doesn't get it (the only way we can tell what we have managed to teach them is by how they respond). And that will usually mean that you have to go back to the beginning, form a plan for communicating it to your dog more clearly, and re-teach it.

Edited July 30, 2008 by WalandLibby

[Jigsaw]

Hi Noodle Nut - all good suggestions with recall. Just another thought as I was reading was your tone of voice when doing recall - sometimes using a slightly higher pitch than other commands may help. Higher voice is more exciting and interesting. Do you use her name first and then "come"? Sounds prettty basic but sometimes the use of the name first then command is overlooked, once she learns to recognise the command you should be able to phase out her name over time. The use of the name will put them on alert and then using a higher voice will attract attention hopefully! Does Noodle play tug? You could reward her with a game of tug when she comes if she's interested in that sort of thing. You could also try using a lure initially like a toy (fur covered mouse or some feathers) on a string to reel in to you fast and attract her attention and then reward with a game, ball toss.

[denis_c]

You have been given a lot of good ideas. I don't know pulis that well, and now finding out that food is a slighly indifferent reinforcer, I would be using the things that are stopping her to come in the first place. My dog is very prey /toy orientated My older dog is a breeze he is totally food obsessed.

I first got a very rapid recall happening that was always rewarded in a non dog non people environment.

I then added the recall lead for a while as we walked around the local parks

When i asked her to come to me without distraction in the park, I made sure that she knew Christmas had arrived

I then took her to dog club and set her up with boring dogs and rewarded her by toys, play and allowing her to return to them

I then set her up with interesting dogs and sure enough i got a couple of failures. Here is where i did things very different. I went down the lead to her and got her to come back to where I had asked her to come by being quite business like and using her collar when we got back I said good girl but no reward.. We only reward what we want

The next time she came back, I rewarded her heavily, and let her go back to what she had left.

When she failed, I went down the lead got her to come back and timed her out for a couple of minutes

I didn't get a lot more failures. She learnt that coming to me meant that she got what she wanted most of the time, and that not coming to me meant that she didn't get anything.

After a whie, I took the recall lead off. I had a real heart stopper, (she went to run across the road) and I went to her and gave a verbal barrage. She is a sensitive soul and hasn't done it since. While I am a "posiitve" trainer, I have no compunctions about adding punishment (P+) in this circumstance.Note that she doesn't have her days filled with "ah ahs" and nos and stuff like that so a punishment like this is huge for her.

There is lots to learn and many other ways of doing it.

This method is very close to that suggested by Susan Garret . It comes with a warning ..It may not work with your dog and you may need help to get it to work. I used a completely different method which was very succesful for my Lab, but it just doesn't work for some other breeds.

[NoodleNut]

Hi Noodle Nut - all good suggestions with recall. Just another thought as I was reading was your tone of voice when doing recall - sometimes using a slightly higher pitch than other commands may help. Higher voice is more exciting and interesting. Do you use her name first and then "come"? Sounds prettty basic but sometimes the use of the name first then command is overlooked, once she learns to recognise the command you should be able to phase out her name over time. The use of the name will put them on alert and then using a higher voice will attract attention hopefully! Does Noodle play tug? You could reward her with a game of tug when she comes if she's interested in that sort of thing. You could also try using a lure initially like a toy (fur covered mouse or some feathers) on a string to reel in to you fast and attract her attention and then reward with a game, ball toss.

Hi Jigsaw, I use a very high pitch 'Nooodle Noooodle Noodle" and it is very fast and try to make it as exciting as possible. I did try to use 'Come' but it gets a very deadpan look from her and she shows absolutely no interest .. I tried it too with hands in teh air as I have seen some trainers do as I thought this might help ... nope Noodle understands my signed commands with or without verbal commands .. ie. sit is my hand on my chest and she does this 99.9% of the time that I ask her (like putting on her lead, letting her in and out of the back door, before meals, any time I want her too ... very successful). Drop is finger to the ground and I get success 95% of the time with this. Roll over is the hand up and over the head (98% of the time .. with the kids too), shake hands is just hold my hand out and it is also 98% of the time ... all great, successsful. Taught with tiny bits of cheese but the recall just doesn't cut it with the shaved cheese. I don't use any food rewards with the other cues and get these successes with affection as a reward or walks etc.

I like the idea of the lure .. that might just work as she does love to run ... should have seen her after a JRT the other day ... talk about fast! She was nearly skidding her whole side on the grass! Two 'wheels' off the ground!! I will try that one this weekend and see how we go.

[NoodleNut]

I then set her up with interesting dogs and sure enough i got a couple of failures. Here is where i did things very different. I went down the lead to her and got her to come back to where I had asked her to come by being quite business like and using her collar when we got back I said good girl but no reward.. We only reward what we want

The next time she came back, I rewarded her heavily, and let her go back to what she had left.

When she failed, I went down the lead got her to come back and timed her out for a couple of minutes

I didn't get a lot more failures. She learnt that coming to me meant that she got what she wanted most of the time, and that not coming to me meant that she didn't get anything.

After a whie, I took the recall lead off.

I looked at your ID and thought OH was online (same name and initial!!) ... if it was I would expect he would have told me the answers LOL

Good ideas on the lead going to her ... will have to try this one out too. I liked the idea of timing out ... think this would have a lot of merit with Noodle. She loves being with us ... adores going in the car too.

Thanks so much for the ideas all of you .... I have been really stuck as the books/articles I read and purchased before and after we got her seemed to assume our dog would have a food drive (groan) not her ... I listened to a friend of mine today whose cocker spaniel will do anything for her for any sort of food. Maybe it is a family thing with our dogs ... our last dog a Sibe also had no interest in food.

Someone suggested playing tug with her. I had read that playing tug is not a good thing for a family with children so I have discouraged it as it tends to encourage win and loose and I did not want a problem with dominance when I have a 10 year old ad a 6 year old. Noodle does play tug on her own with an Aussie Dog toy that I hang out when I head to work ... she adores playing with that! Our 10 year old loves playing 'ruff and tumble' and throwing her ball with her on the back lawn and she loves playing 'chase me' with hubby and our son .. I am unsure if this is a good thing though and would go against my recall training? Thoughts?

Noodle has shown no signs of aggression although I have told her off once or twice ..... she took a sock off the clothes airer the other night and I caught her in the act! When I asked her to give she dropped it so that training must have worked. Just need to get this sorted out

[WalandLibby]

I had read that playing tug is not a good thing for a family with children so I have discouraged it as it tends to encourage win and loose

Trainers certainly used to think so, but now most think it is a really powerful reward. Dogs do not usually seem to be competing when they play this game - when 2 dogs are playing tug, if one loses it's grip, the one that still has the toy usually tries to start the game up again, rather than claiming possession in a way that would be consistent with competition being the motivation for the game.

However over-excitement can be an issue, so the rules for the game should be clear (basically that getting too excited or making tooth contact with human skin ends the game, which you can do simply by walking away, leaving her with the toy). You should start by tugging very gently so she doesn't get over-excited. It is something I wouldn't recommend that a child play with a dog because they have more difficulty keeping to those rules, but for you to do it shouldn't have any effect on Noodle's relationship with your children. There is no need for you to 'win' or to take the toy at the end of the game (although taking it away after she's lost interest in it may increase it's value for her when you later bring it out to play with).

[Jigsaw]

This is one method of playing tug. http://www.naturaldogblog.com/blog/2007/07...g-on-the-block/

Some trainers use different methods to this mainly to teach the dog self control going from high arousal to calm.

[denis_c]

Tug of war is a great game to play with a dogs.

There is a different warning here.. don't advocate this in public because you face a far chance of getting a fair bit of heat, as I have found out.

As others have said, you do need rules, and you need to teach them.

The biggest problem I find is actually getting a dog to play. I would take the over excited bit anytime....

I have found a lot of good suggestions with the more modern shutzhund trainers,(and leernt to appreciate the sport to).

But what I do have is mini poodle with a very soft mouth and a root canal on one side so I made a toy to suit.

It works extremely well. She will walk over a mile of broken glass for it , but I have to be careful not to over use it.

It is imperative that she win.

The end prey sequence is attack,bite, take prey. IMHO if drive is a valid way to also understand dog behaviour, then all of these steps are helpful to satisfying our dog's drive.

I use this toy for recalls, sometimes.

[dogdude]

It works extremely well. She will walk over a mile of broken glass for it , but I have to be careful not to over use it.

It is imperative that she win.

The end prey sequence is attack,bite, take prey. IMHO if drive is a valid way to also understand dog behaviour, then all of these steps are helpful to satisfying our dog's drive.

I use this toy for recalls, sometimes

Tug is a great way to satisfy prey drive, although if taught properly, the above concerns regarding dog taking posession of prey item, and to some extent, over use, become irrelevant.

The dogs drive can be satisfied fully, without taking posession of the item. IMO it is imperative that "you" fully own the item, and it is his great "privilege" to play with it, under your terms and conditions. Under no circumstances should the item become a toy in his control.

A great dvd for learning how to train this way is by getting hold of the Ivan Balabanov dvds

(important to get both of them)

They can be purchased from dogwise.com (well worth the money)

[NoodleNut]

The dogs drive can be satisfied fully, without taking posession of the item. IMO it is imperative that "you" fully own the item, and it is his great "privilege" to play with it, under your terms and conditions. Under no circumstances should the item become a toy in his control.

I must admit the the balls I use for fetch are kept inside by me .. should see her when I walk out the door with one of them ... she gets so excited as she knows it is a play and it doesn't happen every day so it is even more a treat!

I think in the first instance I will try the ball/toy idea for the recall .. her green ball X dumbell will be perfect but I think I will get two in case she decides that 'staying away' is more fun than bringing it back to me.

I have read all the posts about the tug games ... I need a couple or nights to do a bit ore reading and thinking as my gut feeling is I am still not sure ... please don't be offended .. just need to reconsider as it is against what I have read and been told. I do remember my breeder saying that tug of war was fine as long as I took the toy EVERY time ... that is against some of your advice too .... hmmmm ...... need to think this one through and read the references one of you gave me.

Thank you for all of your thoughts and suggestions .. got to get out there and give a few a goa nd see if I get some sort of positive response so that I can really hone in on that one.

[Fevah]

I'd like to say thank you to everyone for giving me such great pointers.

I've had much more luck with recall lately in the 'outdoors', I've changed the 'come' command to 'hadisuda' (supposedly its Russian for come here, dad used to say it to me all the time so I guess its stuck!) and only say it once. At the beach Remy responds to this very well and he was very good in the forest the other day too - although this might have to do with the fact that the other dogs that came with us are well-known to him. I use it more at the beach because he tends to run after the Koolie girls and wants to explore further while I get left behind because I am only walking! I call 'Remy' to get his attention, then 'hadisuda' (using high pitched voice) and when he runs up he gets a treat (Remy is very food motivated, not so much toy motivated although he has a strange fascination with socks, he tries to pull them off when you put them on). If he comes without me calling I praise him and give him a pat because I want him to know I appreciate him 'checking up' on me.

I haven't really had the chance to test this method at agility yet, so updates later. I think I will keep him on the lead at training for the time being. I wish I had some equipment at home because I really think we ought to practice more, not just 1 hour a week. Anyway thats a different subject.

I just borrowed 'Dog Training For Dummies' from my local library, so that might help also! LOL

Thanks again!

[Fevah]

I'd like some recommendations for dog trainers in Adelaide.

My pups love the beach and I want to be able to let them run free, but I don't have enough control, they have incredibly selective hearing.

Today they ran up to a bear of a man and were wagging their tails and barking happily at him, but wouldn't come when I called so he kicked out at both of them. :rolleyes: Really spoiled my day.

So yes, please please please help. I must be doing something wrong and I want to be a responsible dog owner.

[Jeff Jones]

http://www.caninetraining.com.au/

Mark is in Adelaide and will be able to help you out.

[Vixn00]

Fevah, another thing that might be helpful is REALLY RELIABLE RECALL with Leslie Nelson - it's a DVD I got from "Dogwise" website.

I'm in Adelaide & can lend it to you. Send me a message if you're interested.

Hey Shoshana Any chance i could borrow tha DVD to copy it. Sabre's recall is apalling if he is inntencely playing with a dog atthe beach. I want him to be able to run free but stil come back to me when I call instead of me having to go to him..

PM me if thats possible..