Bad Recall :s

[Fevah]

Hey guys,

I've recently enrolled Remy (My MinPin) in agility and he's doing really well. Unfortunately he goes nuts when he sees other dogs and just runs up to them and encourages them to start playing. Then my trainer says "Its all about control", well thanks buddy but that isn't helping me solve the problem (no specific advice). My pup listens to me in every other situation, even when he's playing with my partner's dog - he knows when its ok to 'go play' and when to 'come' but this doesn't work when he meets new furkids. He has terrible recall in these situations. I'm keen for any suggestions.

Thanks

Edited September 20, 2008 by Fevah

[cramet]

if you are having trouble with your recall get ur self a long line

let ur dog wonder when your ready call ur dog and u real in ur dog like a fishing rod

once ur dog finish were u want (in front or at the heal) reward with a treat, food, tug toy or clicker what ever u use

[charli73]

Our girl is also terrible with Recall when other dogs are around so I dont let her off lead..

I was once told not to ever practice of lead as if they dont come they learn to disregard what you say however...

I had a GREAT idea sugested to me and its wokring miracles.. play with the dog in your back yard off lead and call out "come" and if puppy doesnt come go inside and stop playing for 10-15 mins.. The dog soon learns to continue playing she has to come..

We have been doing this at home for a couple of weeks now and she is consistently recalling, with a sit in front of me and then I continue to keep playing with her.... and at school she is going grea too. She has finally learnt to come or no play. We are going to practice this with more distraction than a ball flying around the yard soon.

Yet to try it off lead but not going to try it anytime soon until she is faultless.

Hope this helps, as it certainly has helped us..

[J...]

I had a similiar problem with Darcy when she was young. As my 1st dog, I tried to do all the right things by socialising her thoroughly with other dogs, and letting her play with other dogs before and after class. This meant that when it came to "working", other dogs were far more exciting than what I could offer, and I couldn't get her focus on me. It's not about control, it's about you being the absolutely best & most fun thing in the world to your dog.

I got to the stage that I didn't let Darcy play with any other dogs other than my parents and friends dogs completely outside of agility because it was just too reinforcing. I made sure I was the most fun thing to her, so I spent a lot of time playing with her with toys and wrestling with her and just working on keeping her attention on me at home, and then taking it out to more distracting environments, and then finally to training. I knew we finally had it the day another dog decided that playing with us would be far more fun than working with his owner, and Darcy barely even realised the other dog was there. Now she can play with other dogs at training, even before training, but her first preference is to play the game with me.

I would find something that you can offer which really excites your dog, whether it be a specific toy or a really special food treat. Work on it at home, play with him until he's completely excited, and then put the toy away and leave the game for later. Frustrate the cr*p out of him so all he wants to do is play with that toy with you, or get that special food treat. Don't let him have it unless you give him access to it, and make them really short sessions, no more than a few minutes.

In regards to training - At the moment your MinPin has a record of success for playing with new furfriends at training, and its very hard to break that record of success if you keep doing the same thing. If he were my dog, I would consider pulling him from class for a bit until you have him more focussed on you, or at least keep him on lead so he can't continue to succeed with running off to play with other dogs.

Good luck!

[dee lee]

Jess,

Great advice!!

[charli73]

I had a similiar problem with Darcy when she was young. As my 1st dog, I tried to do all the right things by socialising her thoroughly with other dogs, and letting her play with other dogs before and after class. This meant that when it came to "working", other dogs were far more exciting than what I could offer, and I couldn't get her focus on me. It's not about control, it's about you being the absolutely best & most fun thing in the world to your dog.

I got to the stage that I didn't let Darcy play with any other dogs other than my parents and friends dogs completely outside of agility because it was just too reinforcing. I made sure I was the most fun thing to her, so I spent a lot of time playing with her with toys and wrestling with her and just working on keeping her attention on me at home, and then taking it out to more distracting environments, and then finally to training. I knew we finally had it the day another dog decided that playing with us would be far more fun than working with his owner, and Darcy barely even realised the other dog was there. Now she can play with other dogs at training, even before training, but her first preference is to play the game with me.

I would find something that you can offer which really excites your dog, whether it be a specific toy or a really special food treat. Work on it at home, play with him until he's completely excited, and then put the toy away and leave the game for later. Frustrate the cr*p out of him so all he wants to do is play with that toy with you, or get that special food treat. Don't let him have it unless you give him access to it, and make them really short sessions, no more than a few minutes.

In regards to training - At the moment your MinPin has a record of success for playing with new furfriends at training, and its very hard to break that record of success if you keep doing the same thing. If he were my dog, I would consider pulling him from class for a bit until you have him more focussed on you, or at least keep him on lead so he can't continue to succeed with running off to play with other dogs.

Good luck! :D

Jess,

how old was your dog when you finally let her off lead and she came back while other dogs were around? Do you think its just an age thing? Im being told once she matures she wont be so focussed on other dogs, more on us..

[TerraNik]

Jess,

how old was your dog when you finally let her off lead and she came back while other dogs were around? Do you think its just an age thing? Im being told once she matures she wont be so focussed on other dogs, more on us..

I think it depends on the dog... I let my 18 week old pup off lead and he recalls every time when playing with other dogs. But we have been working very hard on it.

I am a firm believer that until your dog has a rock solid recall you should never use the command to come. That way the dog never learns that he/she could just ignore you. I would try out the long line and see if that helps.

[charli73]

Jess,

how old was your dog when you finally let her off lead and she came back while other dogs were around? Do you think its just an age thing? Im being told once she matures she wont be so focussed on other dogs, more on us..

I think it depends on the dog... I let my 18 week old pup off lead and he recalls every time when playing with other dogs. But we have been working very hard on it.

I am a firm believer that until your dog has a rock solid recall you should never use the command to come. That way the dog never learns that he/she could just ignore you. I would try out the long line and see if that helps.

We have long line and at school today around other dogs she did a recall straight to me and sat in front... I used to never do it off lead but this new "ignore her" if she doesnt recall seems to be doing the trick for us ATM... I didnt realise when she was a pup just how important and how hard recalls would be down the track so we only have ourseles to blame for letting her off lead as a puppy to play and socialise with other dogs...

but hey she seems to be finally getting the message now so were pretty happy.

[J...]

Jess,

how old was your dog when you finally let her off lead and she came back while other dogs were around? Do you think its just an age thing? Im being told once she matures she wont be so focussed on other dogs, more on us..

Mine wasn't an age thing, it was a training issue. We did PPS and Puppy class through the one club, and letting your dog play with others before and after class, and in many cases during was very much the done thing and very hard to avoid. I let it happen as I didn't know any better.

I tried to put a stop to the playing and focussing in on other dogs by the time she was about 4.5 months as it was becoming a problem but it was far too entrenched in that environment. When she was about 6 months I found a club which was closer and also offered agility foundation classes to dogs 6 months and over. The change in environment and training styles (I discovered training in drive through Steve from K9 Force at about the same time) made all the difference.

I don't remember her recall being an issue in agility class, but I wouldn't have let her off-lead if it was. I know she was pretty good by the end of the 1st session (4 weeks - so she was about 7.5 months) and by the time she was put into advanced at 11 months she was well and truly reliable off-lead.

Edited July 20, 2008 by Jess.

[GreatBigPuppy]

Without reading the other posts (so I may repeat something someone has said) I teach recall by making myself the centre of the dogs universe. Food comes from me, walks, cuddles, punishment, rules, direction, affection and all the rest.

This along with structured obedience type recall means that my dogs come to me when I call. If I am unsure, I don't unclip the lead.

[Luke GSP]

Without reading the other posts (so I may repeat something someone has said) I teach recall by making myself the centre of the dogs universe. Food comes from me, walks, cuddles, punishment, rules, direction, affection and all the rest.

This along with structured obedience type recall means that my dogs come to me when I call. If I am unsure, I don't unclip the lead.

What you have typed is very interesting but my concern with that phylosophy is that very few people can control their dogs environment enough to stop any outside stimuli that might trigger a drive response. If that dog responds to that drive stimuli by deciding to run and then gains drive satisfaction what is to say that at some point the dog might have to decide whether or not the payment you are offering (food,walks, cuddles etc) might not be worth as much as the "potential satisfaction of satisfying it's previously unchecked drive just one more time?

Surely then, by your last statement you are saying that your recall is not 100%? Not having a go, I am just trying to gauge what you feel is acceptable. IMO my dogs must come EVERY time I call them, no if's no buts.If a dog comes 99% of the time that means that you have a 1% chance that the one time it is running to the road in front of that truck is the one time your call might fail. I find the subject of recall interesting as most people say that their dog is really reliable and then put a proviso there such as "as long as there aren't birds/people/other dogs/cars etc" that to me is not reliable. I might add that until a few months ago I was also one of those people with a proviso.

[WalandLibby]

He sounds like such a sweet, well-socialised dog. I think you'll find that as you continue, through your training together, to become more and more reinforcing to Remy, the connection between the two of you will naturally increase. I've found that simply rewarding the dog for being near and staying mentally connected with you (initially while they are on lead) is very helpful in improving their recall. They begin to make the choice themselves to stay near and responsive to you. I would be increasing the number of good things you give your pup when you are in these challenging situations near other dogs (with enough distance - and this distance will decrease over time - that he can take the treats) so that he learns to expect that other dogs=good things from my owner. What seems to be happening now, from what you describe is that he thinks other dogs=opportunity to play (and play is *very* reinforcing to a well-socialised young dog). You should move fairly quickly from giving the treat regardless of his behaviour (to establish this other dogs=good things from owner connection) to waiting for him to engage with you before giving it.

The recall is just like any other behaviour in that if it has been reinforced adequately (and I'm thinking here only of positive reinforcement) it will be done again.

Remember that the definition of *reinforce* as it applies to training animals is that it makes a behaviour more likely to be repeated in the future. If the behaviour you want (staying with you or coming back when you ask) isn't occurring, that tells you it isn't being reinforced (and that there is no fault on the part of your dog in failing to learn it).

Edited July 22, 2008 by WalandLibby

[kateykateykatey]

Without reading the other posts (so I may repeat something someone has said) I teach recall by making myself the centre of the dogs universe. Food comes from me, walks, cuddles, punishment, rules, direction, affection and all the rest.

This along with structured obedience type recall means that my dogs come to me when I call. If I am unsure, I don't unclip the lead.

What you have typed is very interesting but my concern with that phylosophy is that very few people can control their dogs environment enough to stop any outside stimuli that might trigger a drive response. If that dog responds to that drive stimuli by deciding to run and then gains drive satisfaction what is to say that at some point the dog might have to decide whether or not the payment you are offering (food,walks, cuddles etc) might not be worth as much as the "potential satisfaction of satisfying it's previously unchecked drive just one more time?

Surely then, by your last statement you are saying that your recall is not 100%? Not having a go, I am just trying to gauge what you feel is acceptable. IMO my dogs must come EVERY time I call them, no if's no buts.If a dog comes 99% of the time that means that you have a 1% chance that the one time it is running to the road in front of that truck is the one time your call might fail. I find the subject of recall interesting as most people say that their dog is really reliable and then put a proviso there such as "as long as there aren't birds/people/other dogs/cars etc" that to me is not reliable. I might add that until a few months ago I was also one of those people with a proviso.

What did you do differently to change this?

[denis_c]

Because of the safety aspect, I am very strong on the need for a strong recall. There is another way of achieving very very high recall rates, and that is to use a combination of the Premack principal, some trials mentioned in Lindsay and an understanding of how reinforcement might work.

I teach and expect an instant response form my dogs in the presence of other dogs form puppy hood onwards. Respone = reward plus chance to play again, no response means no way for a while. If I have to, and I have a failure, I don't muck about. If I have to go and get the dog, then I wlll apply an appropiate punishment to the dog. I generally only ever have to do this once or twice.

One interesting aspect of reinforcement is that it is believed that if a solid history of reinforcement is established for an action , then easier access to these rewards may be ignored in preference for access the "normal" or expected way. The original experiment was done by putting food on the floor of a maze that mice were working. They ignored it in preference for the reinforcement that they got at the end. I have tried this concept on a few dogs that have solid recall histories and found that all ignored scattered food on the ground in preference for the food that they might reciieve form their owners. Not scientific but interesting.

If we use the concept of value for reinforcement , we must understand that it is the history of reinforcement that matters not the reward that we are holding in that instant. If my dog understands that coming to me could allow him/her access to other dogs, or flocks of birds or rabbitt holes or yummy food treats or a toy that I work and make fun,and that not coming will certainly involve removal of these things then I have a high probability of a dynamite recall. Like all things dog, it does require maintanence .

[Luke GSP]

Without reading the other posts (so I may repeat something someone has said) I teach recall by making myself the centre of the dogs universe. Food comes from me, walks, cuddles, punishment, rules, direction, affection and all the rest.

This along with structured obedience type recall means that my dogs come to me when I call. If I am unsure, I don't unclip the lead.

What you have typed is very interesting but my concern with that phylosophy is that very few people can control their dogs environment enough to stop any outside stimuli that might trigger a drive response. If that dog responds to that drive stimuli by deciding to run and then gains drive satisfaction what is to say that at some point the dog might have to decide whether or not the payment you are offering (food,walks, cuddles etc) might not be worth as much as the "potential satisfaction of satisfying it's previously unchecked drive just one more time?

Surely then, by your last statement you are saying that your recall is not 100%? Not having a go, I am just trying to gauge what you feel is acceptable. IMO my dogs must come EVERY time I call them, no if's no buts.If a dog comes 99% of the time that means that you have a 1% chance that the one time it is running to the road in front of that truck is the one time your call might fail. I find the subject of recall interesting as most people say that their dog is really reliable and then put a proviso there such as "as long as there aren't birds/people/other dogs/cars etc" that to me is not reliable. I might add that until a few months ago I was also one of those people with a proviso.

What did you do differently to change this?

Spoke to Steve at K9 Force and put a regime in place that has literally changed our lives in as far as what we can and cannot do with our dogs. Before talking to him I would not have dared take our male off the lead as he would have locked on to any moving object and ran,ran,ran. Steve talks to you in a way you can understand and then suggests a solution that works for both you and your dog, he also explains the science behind it all if you want to get that in depth about it.

[rugerfly]

Yep he makes it simple, but I still get it wrong

[SkySoaringMagpie]

The book "Control Unleashed" by Leslie McDevitt has some great ideas in it for your situation. There is also a Control Unleashed Yahoo Group.

[charli73]

Without reading the other posts (so I may repeat something someone has said) I teach recall by making myself the centre of the dogs universe. Food comes from me, walks, cuddles, punishment, rules, direction, affection and all the rest.

This along with structured obedience type recall means that my dogs come to me when I call. If I am unsure, I don't unclip the lead.

What you have typed is very interesting but my concern with that phylosophy is that very few people can control their dogs environment enough to stop any outside stimuli that might trigger a drive response. If that dog responds to that drive stimuli by deciding to run and then gains drive satisfaction what is to say that at some point the dog might have to decide whether or not the payment you are offering (food,walks, cuddles etc) might not be worth as much as the "potential satisfaction of satisfying it's previously unchecked drive just one more time?

Surely then, by your last statement you are saying that your recall is not 100%? Not having a go, I am just trying to gauge what you feel is acceptable. IMO my dogs must come EVERY time I call them, no if's no buts.If a dog comes 99% of the time that means that you have a 1% chance that the one time it is running to the road in front of that truck is the one time your call might fail. I find the subject of recall interesting as most people say that their dog is really reliable and then put a proviso there such as "as long as there aren't birds/people/other dogs/cars etc" that to me is not reliable. I might add that until a few months ago I was also one of those people with a proviso.

What did you do differently to change this?

Spoke to Steve at K9 Force and put a regime in place that has literally changed our lives in as far as what we can and cannot do with our dogs. Before talking to him I would not have dared take our male off the lead as he would have locked on to any moving object and ran,ran,ran. Steve talks to you in a way you can understand and then suggests a solution that works for both you and your dog, he also explains the science behind it all if you want to get that in depth about it.

Well if only Steve from K9 were in Vic Id get his help in a flash! Heard great things, training in drive is one thing Id love to do with our GSD...

Edited July 26, 2008 by charli73

[Shoshana]

Fevah, another thing that might be helpful is REALLY RELIABLE RECALL with Leslie Nelson - it's a DVD I got from "Dogwise" website.

I'm in Adelaide & can lend it to you. Send me a message if you're interested.

[charli73]

Shoshana,

does the dvd go over recalls under distraction, ie other dogs?