Combining Weaving Methods

[Kavik]

Hey guys

I am currently using the channel weave method with Kaos. Going really well, he drives through the channel fast and can find the entrance from some angles on both sides. I am currently narrowing the channel.

I was wondering if people ever combine a few methods, or do they usually stick to the one? The slanted pole method also looks really interesting and I can see how it would promote good footwork.

Or using a different method just for entries?

Would using more than one method confuse the dog? I currently only have a channel weave set but my birthday and christmas is sort of coming up . . .

[LilBailey]

I would be very interested to see a reply to this as well. Sorry if you got excited seeing that someone had replyed but not with an answer.

[J...]

This is FWIW, as I've only taught the one agility dog, but I'm pretty happy with her weave performance.

We started on channel weaves at training, then I read about 2x2 when I read Susan Garretts book so I went with that.

We did all the 2x2 work, but I do admit I kept a very slight channel for a while as I wasn't quite sure of how to really close it up from 2x2. Also I occasionally left the entry slightly kicked out so it was easier for her to see and drive through.

I did go to a seminar which touched on weaving methods, this person had pushed for a particular weaving method in order to get her dog single stepping through the weavers and put a lot of work into it. She did say that she was concerned as the dogs structure did not really suit single stepping, which she figured out later after the dogs weaving behaviour was well established.

[kelpiechick]

Assuming by slanted poles you mean WAM's (Weave-A-Matics?) where they start out flat on the ground and are gradually raised.

There was an article in Clean Run (Feb. 2007) by Ann Croft where she begins training with channels then once her dog is running through the channel she changes to WAM's to teach footwork. It is quite a detailed article and is set out step by step. I haven't seen her 'Dream Weaves' DVD but would assume that it also covers combining these methods.

Might be worth checking out if you are keen on doing this.

I have 2 kelpies trained totally with channels and both have totally different footwork - go figure

[Kavik]

Well, whatever works for the dog hey

Thanks for that, I might try to get a look at that article, it sounds interesting and what I was thinking of doing.

[JulesP]

We have a channel and slanted poles set up at school. Brock will go through both with no angst. He seems slightly happier with the slanted poles. I was actually thinking of moving to slanted poles now. So good to read that someone else has done it.

[leopuppy04]

We did all the 2x2 work, but I do admit I kept a very slight channel for a while as I wasn't quite sure of how to really close it up from 2x2. Also I occasionally left the entry slightly kicked out so it was easier for her to see and drive through.

Ditto - I think mine partially turned into a channel, but I was trying to do SG's 2x2. To be honest, I'm *really* pleased with the results and think I'll keep teaching it this way regardless!!!

[Kavik]

OK so the big question

At the moment I have a set of 6 channel weaves on a base that can be moved to make it as close together as you want. But is a bit flimsy. I was going to ask for 2 sets of 6 (so 12 altogether) channel weaves of different design. Or would it be better to get a set of V-weaves so that I have both types?

I just did a session then, he is starting to get a bit of a wiggle happening as we close the weaves, still driving through nice and fast and keen

[JulesP]

Mine are individual dodads. So could do a channel or V with them or the 2x2. Pretty handy except having to measure the distances.

[kelpiechick]

If you are going to use the WAM's to teach footwork, they need to lay flat on the ground first, to build the correct foundation so you would need to get a set made up, they usually have a metal base and some sort of a hinge to allow them to lay out flat.

IMO you can't teach good footwork starting with the poles in a V - the poles need to start flat and are gradually raised to a V position - by the time the dog gets to do them in a V, the footwork pattern is pretty well established.

By starting with them in a V you would end up with a dog lifting its feet higher than necessary which would not be an efficient weaving style, plus the tendency for the dog to get hung up on them if they are still experimenting with footwork.

I guess it depends on how much success you are having with the channel method whether you combine this with another method or not. I have been happy with the results I have had using channels alone so can't see the need for the expense of another set, but I guess I would do it if I wasn't happy with their footwork. Both mine average around 3 seconds on a set of 12 poles, although there is a lot more inconsistency with the 'green dog' as to how fast he completes them.

First dog trained this way I started with 3-4 poles and added more 2 at a time. With my youngest dog, I started with 6 (think I used 4 for a couple of repetitions until he got the idea) and then went straight to 12. I used the steps outlined in Joe Canova's 'World Class Weaves' DVD and was pretty happy with the results.

One thing he does differently that has worked well for me is that he doesn't do varied entries for each stage, just head on and fast !

Once the dog can weave 12 poles well, he then introduces round the clock entries with the handler in different postions.

This made a lot of sense to me(less variables to work on at a time) and I am very pleased with the results I am getting now with more difficult entries.

So many choices and no right or wrong answers I guess. Good Luck with what you decide.

[Kavik]

The channel is working so far, just not sure whether it would be better to introduce another method for footwork.

These are the slanted weaves I was looking at:

http://www.airdogs.com.au/agility/product....=252&page=1

or

http://www.affordableagility.com/weavespvc.htm

and the other channel:

http://www.affordableagility.com/weaveschannel.htm

[kelpiechick]

Yep - they're the ones.

They start at 180 degrees, flat out on the ground and then work up to the V.

I hate the way they always show the picture with them slanted, as I think a lot of people think taking stick in the ground ones and putting them into a V is a weave training method, when in fact it is a progression with a lot of steps before it.

We were looking at using them to teach weaves at club as our Pres. makes them, but decided it would be a logistical nightmare to try and keep track of which stage everyone was up to as they are raised up very slowly, so stuck with the channel.

In our foundation class, the channel is really wide and the dogs are taught to run between them to build up speed and enthusiasm. In the next class we usually set up 3 sets, varying widths of the channel and split class into groups depending where they are up to and that's hard enough to keep track of - and unfortunately some instructors put them all on the same width and don't bother to individualise

For me, I would only bother to 'artificially teach' footwork if my dog was cross stepping or not building up speed moving through the channel after a number of reps. (ie: once he knew his job) I don't believe that single stepping is natural footwork for some dogs.

Some dogs appear to have 'natural' footwork through the weaves and develop it very quickly - think of those BC's that almost 'fish' through the poles. (There's a 14 month old one in the DVD I mentioned that has weaves to die for - after about 6 weeks training)

I believe it takes other dogs a long time to build up really efficient footwork and they have to experiment with it for a bit first.

If you decide to go for the WAM's I would recommend looking at the Ann Croft CR article first - or even purchasing her DVD.

If you're going to go to the expense of buying them, you want to get the best possible results.

If you decide to stick with just the channel, I would recommend the Joe Canova DVD. (Also has a great 'trouble shooting' section that fixed up an inconsistent speed issue I was having with mine in just a few repetitions.)

I can't give you any advice as to whether it is worthwhile to combine methods as I have never done it. Ultimately you need to decide if it is worth it or not. I do know that it is certainly 'legitimate' to do so as several US trainers do it. Elicia Calhoun uses 3 different methods to teach weaves.

(Channel, WAM's and 2X2 free shaping for entries)

Edited July 18, 2008 by kelpiechick

[JulesP]

What is the difference between channel and 2x2?

[kelpiechick]

What is the difference between channel and 2x2?

Channel weaving is a method where the the poles are spaced apart (every 2nd pole is offset to the right) to create an opening or channel through the poles - dog learns first to run a wide channel, then the poles are gradually moved closer together until the dog needs to 'weave' to be able to get through the channel. (And just to confuse things you can teach the channel by slanting the poles as well although you don't have to.)

2X2 is a method made popular by Susan Garrett in 2002 where the dog learns to find the correct entry using just 2 poles, further poles are then added, but NOT in a straight line. It basically teaches the dog that weaving is just a series of 'correct entries.' There are very specific steps for how to add each set of 2 poles.

Once you are up to around Step 8, it does start to resemble channel weaving but the principles and teaching methodology for getting there in the first place is very different. It is explained in detail in her book 'Shaping Success.'

You can see it being trained on Youtube if you do a search. The example I like was from someone called 'Klok' or 'Kloka'- something like that. (Sorry, did a link for you, but it keeps telling me page is unavailable for some reason)

[JulesP]

Ta. I started with the 2x2 and am now at channel stage I guess.

[Kavik]

I think I am probably too impatient for 2x2

I only have 6 poles at the moment, want to get 12 so I can practice the full amount once he can weave 6, just not sure which type to get. I would have to get a new set of 12 as I can't remember where I got my original 6 from, and want to have all the same.

I like the channel method and haven't used slanted pole before, but know lots of people have success with it.