Dog Obedience Clubs For A Dog Aggressive Dog

[jaybeece]

I'm considering a change of clubs now my membership is up at the current one. We had a not so fun experience there with one of the instructors and we outgrew the training there some time ago.

Croydon seems to be pretty highly recommended and I like the sound of it based on their website, plus with the new freeway in it's not that far from me anymore

So I have a couple of questions:

What's the attitude towards dog aggressive dogs? Are they welcome and are the instructors able to deal with them?

What are the muzzling requirements for dog aggressive dogs? I couldn't find anything in the rules about it, at the moment I muzzle my boy for offlead work, but onlead it's off as it annoys the bejeezus out of him (looking at a new one when finances improve).

The yellow bandanna system for less approachable dogs sounds like a great idea, but do club members actually adhere to it? Is it made clear to them what their purpose is?

Thanks

EDIT: changed the title

Edited July 15, 2008 by jaybeece

[Jamaica]

Croydon do have a yellow bandanna policy, but its amazing how many people dont

know what it means and still dont give you space, but it is a good club

with great instructors, there are a few instructors who are really good with aggressive dogs

and if you ask then they will not hesitate to help.

to be a member there you need up to date vaccinations and it isnt the cheapest

club around but your membership allowes you to do agility and has victorias best

flyball club, all the training is positive and is done on sundays.

[haven]

I don't like to knock other clubs and instructors, but I wouldn't recommend them - especially in your case.

I do know they have some trainers who would be capable of assisting you and giving you good advice but the vast majority, based on my personal experience there, wouldn't.

I don't know what their actual policy is, but when I was a member there and refused to leave my dog tied up unattended (because he is fearful - NOT aggressive) I was told that "vicious dogs were not welcome". I was also told off for correcting my dog because they apparently only allow positive methods.

[jaybeece]

Croydon do have a yellow bandanna policy, but its amazing how many people dont

know what it means and still dont give you space,

Hmm that'd be a big concern for me. If a club's going to introduce a system like that I would have thought they'd do more to enforce/encourage it amongst club members.

to be a member there you need up to date vaccinations and it isnt the cheapest

club around but your membership allowes you to do agility and has victorias best

flyball club, all the training is positive and is done on sundays.

Most obedience clubs need vaccination certs anyway so that's ok and the cost of membership isn't any higher than where I've been in the past. I'm less concerned with the membership fees and more about the quality of the training and club in general.

I don't know what their actual policy is, but when I was a member there and refused to leave my dog tied up unattended (because he is fearful - NOT aggressive) I was told that "vicious dogs were not welcome". I was also told off for correcting my dog because they apparently only allow positive methods.

And that's an even big concern No way would I leave my dog tied up anywhere if I was more than a metre away and if anyone told me that "vicious" dogs weren't allowed I'd leave (probably in tears) and never go back. It's hard enough dealing with my pup's issues without being judged or made to feel unwelcome.

How long ago was it that this happened Haven? Is is possible things have changed since then?

[haven]

It was a few years ago but I don't believe you will find things have changed much. I do keep a close eye on many clubs and trainers professionally because, until recently, it was part of my job and I always keep an ear to the ground for other people's personal experiences.

I do know for a fact that they have a few exceptionally knowledgable and experienced trainers and that there are many members who are nothing but happy with their experiences. For anyone with a puppy or an adult dog that is easily trainable with no major behavioural issues I'd say go for it, especially if you want something light and fun like agility, rally-o, flyball etc. The cost of membership IMO isn't so high as to rule it out as a 'just pay and see' option for a lot of people, which is a plus.

However, for anyone with a more difficult dog or a dog with a major behavioural issue like aggression I wouldn't touch them with a ten foot pole. I honestly believe it could be a matter not just of not receiving the assistance you need but actually putting you, your dog and others in a dangerous situation, one which could easy exacerbate your dogs issues.

As I said, I don't like to knock other trainers or clubs, but I honestly feel it would be remiss of me not to say anything in this case, for your benefit or that of anyone in a similar situation who many also read this thread.

[menacebear]

I'm with the flyball section of croydon and i find the trainers to be helpful, however it is a massive club with alot of members and dogs so naturally some people don't understand about keeping away from the yellow bandanna dogs. The instructers enforce that but some of the other members may not be so great with it. I thought croydon has a no tethering rule? I didn't think you could leave them tied up unsupervised at all.

Maybe go down on a sunday morning and have a look at things. Only you can decide what is best for your dog.

[jaybeece]

However, for anyone with a more difficult dog or a dog with a major behavioural issue like aggression I wouldn't touch them with a ten foot pole. I honestly believe it could be a matter not just of not receiving the assistance you need but actually putting you, your dog and others in a dangerous situation, one which could easy exacerbate your dogs issues.

Thanks Haven, I really appreciate it :D What you've said here is exactly the problem I've encountered with my current club, the instructor put my dog into a situation he should NOT have and upset a lot of people (me especially). All I really want out of an obedience club is the ability to safely socialise my dog without any drama. Something we were getting a lot of before, but a couple of instructors have shaken my confidence and faith in the club and I don't think going back will be a positive thing.

Might start a new thread to see if anyone has any recommendations.

[Staff'n'Toller]

What is your goal jaybeece?

Mel.

[jaybeece]

My goal is just to socialise him in a controlled environment, that's really about it :D His obedience isn't bad (he's been in advanced obedience for a long time), but it's not perfect and one day I'd love to train him in agility as he's really good at the basics.

When we started back at obedience last year he struggled to hold it together in class, but after a few months he was at the point of having a sniff with all but a couple of dogs (he hates boxers for some reason) in the class which was incredible progress. This is really all I want to keep up as if we don't go each week he takes a noticeable step backwards.

So the socialising aspect is absolutely crucial and I'd really like to go to a club where they can respect that I already have the training methods down (from K9 Force), so don't need a whole lot of input in that respect. Advice is fine, but I've had instructors get offended when I've told them thanks, but we're doing it differently. One that has some kind of visual indication (like yellow bandannas) to say he needs some space would be lovely too, doesn't seem that the system works in most clubs though.

Edited July 14, 2008 by jaybeece

[Staff'n'Toller]

I can't help but wonder if you should scrap the obedience side and focus on agility if that's what you want to do?

If you choose a club that is agility-only or (since he has advanced level obedience) end up going through the Croydon levels and focus on agility, then you can work your socialisation exercises at a distance that suits your dog.

Mel.

[jaybeece]

I'd be pretty happy to scrap obedience altogether to be honest, we're both bored with it so he won't get any better. His recall isn't very good, but it's mostly because we never practise it outside of school and his concentration goes to hell when he's wearing a muzzle offlead at school. He just hits the ground and tries to remove it as it's not a good fit and is clearly quite uncomfortable.

Agility would be great, but I really do need to address his socialising first and foremost. He won't be trustworthy offlead unless he continues to improve with other dogs so that's what I'm focussing on as a priority. Even with a muzzle on I need to make sure he's not going to be charging at other dogs if they upset him. Part of that is his recall, but the larger part is learning to deal with other dogs.

We've had a play on agility equipment and both of us enjoyed it, but if I can't teach him a send away at the moment there's probably not much more we can do for now.

[Staff'n'Toller]

Ok, that was my other question, can he do distance work without wanting to run off to other dogs.

You need better controlled classes, tailored for your dog, I doubt you will find what you are looking for in a club situation, volunteer run or otherwise.

I know where there are some, but you'd need a behaviourist consult first and I'm guessing that a) you have already spent a bit on K9 lessons and b) the information may be conflicting.

Unfortunately I don't know any clubs that will allow 'known' dogs that rush other dogs into activity classes :D it's an insurance thing more than anything else.

Mel.

[JulesP]

What's the attitude towards dog aggressive dogs? Are they welcome and are the instructors able to deal with them?

The dog would be assessed. There are other dogs there that have issues so they aren't turned away. Yes there are some instructors there that could deal with the dog. If your obedience is ok then you would probably go in a higher class anyway. There is also a class that is for socialisation.

What are the muzzling requirements for dog aggressive dogs? I couldn't find anything in the rules about it, at the moment I muzzle my boy for offlead work, but onlead it's off as it annoys the bejeezus out of him (looking at a new one when finances improve).

I guess would depend on the dog. I have seen some dogs muzzled. Lots of other aggressive type dogs aren't.

The yellow bandanna system for less approachable dogs sounds like a great idea, but do club members actually adhere to it? Is it made clear to them what their purpose is?

Yes it is made clear to club members what the bandannas are for. But some people are always stupid! Considering the amount of people that attend you hear very few flare ups.

$65 for the first year & $45 for the following years is pretty cheap! What clubs are cheaper than that?

Croydon does have a positive training philosophy. It is not so full on as some other clubs I have heard about i.e. people can use correction chains. Steve would be pleased to hear that I stand in class doing my drive work! No one has said anything but I am an instructor! The higher the class you go into the more you can do your own thing.

I think it is a great club. There are some great instructors in the trial ring, we are very lucky to have them.

[Cosmolo]

Hey jaybeece. I don't know if you will be able to get what you need from a normal club? You're welcome to come down and watch one of our group classes but i don't now if the structure is the same as what you're after? Best of luck- hope you find somewhere great, email me if we can help at all.

[haven]

Although I'm not sure if they would be close enough for you (as you're looking at Croydon, so I guess you're outer eastern suburbs?) but you might be better off to look at specific classes for socialising aggressive dogs rather than trying to get what you want out of a class that's for something else entirely. If you haven't checked them out already, you might find what you're looking for at Underdog (speak to Cosmolo), 4 Paws or K9IQ.

On a side note about the 'yellow bandana' and similar systems at clubs for aggressive dogs, as frustrating as it is for everyone it is extremely difficult to police effectively. Some people are fantastic about it but most people (those with the aggressive dogs and those without) come in roughly three categories:

People off in lala land who just don't pay attention;

People concentrating so much on their dog they forget to watch their surroundings;

People who are quite beligerant about the system and think they and their dog should be able to go wherever they like whenever they like (IME a higher percentage of people with aggressive dogs are like this, especially the ones that won't accept that their dog has a problem, but some members with non aggressive dogs are too).

Systems like this also suffer when people with dogs that aren't truely aggressive utilise the warning system unneccesarily because they are nervous handlers or their dog is excitable, or mislabled aggressive because it barks at other dogs etc. and when there are a few dogs that their dog will accept and they allow these dogs to play in view of other members, who then assume the dog is ok with all other dogs.

When you have a large number of people on the grounds at any time, short of having a 1:1 ratio of trainer:member it's just not as easy to police as you would think. Believe me, you can remind and reprimand people over and over til you're blue in the face and the same people cause the same problems week after week after week.

That turned into a bigger rant than I intended

[Jey]

but you might be better off to look at specific classes for socialising aggressive dogs rather than trying to get what you want out of a class that's for something else entirely.

That kind of class would be fantastic. I suppose there are not a lot of them around?

Edited July 15, 2008 by Jey

[jaybeece]

Ok, that was my other question, can he do distance work without wanting to run off to other dogs.

You need better controlled classes, tailored for your dog, I doubt you will find what you are looking for in a club situation, volunteer run or otherwise.

I know where there are some, but you'd need a behaviourist consult first and I'm guessing that a) you have already spent a bit on K9 lessons and b) the information may be conflicting.

Unfortunately I don't know any clubs that will allow 'known' dogs that rush other dogs into activity classes :cool: it's an insurance thing more than anything else.

Mel.

Well he's not THAT bad He's done a fair bit of offlead work at school with his muzzle on and mostly all he wants to do is get back to me, not rush other dogs. But there is a chance he will attack another dog and if he decides to do it then I wouldn't be able to recall him which is why he wears the muzzle. If he saw something to chase or play with he probably wouldn't recall either so distractions are a bit of an issue.

My club has been happy to allow him to do offlead exercises as they're aware that the chances of a problem occurring are low, but it's still something I believe needs to be worked on.

The dog would be assessed. There are other dogs there that have issues so they aren't turned away. Yes there are some instructors there that could deal with the dog. If your obedience is ok then you would probably go in a higher class anyway. There is also a class that is for socialisation.

...

I think it is a great club. There are some great instructors in the trial ring, we are very lucky to have them.

Thanks Jules, maybe I'll go down there on my own and get a feel for it without the dog. A class just for socialising would be really good at this point. I think the price is pretty standard too, never seen anything cheaper.

Hey jaybeece. I don't know if you will be able to get what you need from a normal club? You're welcome to come down and watch one of our group classes but i don't now if the structure is the same as what you're after? Best of luck- hope you find somewhere great, email me if we can help at all.

Thanks Cosmolo, where about's are you based again? I certainly wouldn't mind coming down to see how it all works some time if you're close enough.

Although I'm not sure if they would be close enough for you (as you're looking at Croydon, so I guess you're outer eastern suburbs?) but you might be better off to look at specific classes for socialising aggressive dogs rather than trying to get what you want out of a class that's for something else entirely. If you haven't checked them out already, you might find what you're looking for at Underdog (speak to Cosmolo), 4 Paws or K9IQ.

Ta Haven, actually almost inner Eastern suburbs so I'll take a look at your recommendations. Pretty sure 4 Paws was getting a bit far away for me and haven't looked at K9IQ before.

Has anyone been to K9 Kompany in Lilydale before? They have a class called "Reactive Rover" that could work for us, haven't seen them mentioned on DOL before though.

[JulesP]

I started my agility at K9 Company. I didn't see any of the straight obedience classes though. You pay class by class there so could go and have a look easily. Was quite expensive but as it is part of the local animal aid (Coldstream) I didn't mind paying the money. Is also indoors, not a massive area. Nice atmosphere. They should be good with dogs with issues as a lot of the rescue dogs go there. Very pet focussed rather than comp. Positive based, probably more so than Croydon.