Rysup Posted July 13, 2008 Share Posted July 13, 2008 I have an Amstaff bitch who is a terrible puller and I have failed to teach her that she does not need to pull my arm out of its socket. I have been showing her consistently since she was 3 months old, she just turned 1 year. If I give her a correction on a normal choker, she drops to the ground. She started slinking around, like she hates being on the lead. When the OH takes her for walks, she also pulls constantly, and gets very excited and uppity with other dogs. She was OK up until she had her first season (though she always pulled), but now she is becoming a problem, so much so that I dont like to show her. I have to string her up on a lead to get her to look even half decent. I have not done any obedience work with her, it is not my interest at this point in time, but we have worked constantly on walking on lead, standing, and all the sort of things you do when you show. Yet she cannot even get that part. So anyway do you think a prong collar might be of help here? I dont want any arguments over right and wrong, just some sound advice from those who work with prong collars. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonymc Posted July 13, 2008 Share Posted July 13, 2008 Firstly,the dog doe's not know what you want.We teach our dogs how to behave,whether negatively or positively.The slinking around is an indication that this dog is carrying alot of built up resistance. Yes a prong collar may help,but in all interactions with dogs,we have to look at the role we are playing.Inorder for change to happen with the dog,firstly we must change. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charli73 Posted July 13, 2008 Share Posted July 13, 2008 Wouldnt some basic obedience incorporate the sits drops, stands which you are training anyway, they all involve the dog wearing the lead which may help get her used to it? A prong collar would help with walking but if she hasnt been taught to heel when walking, with turns etc and standing by your side or simple obedience like behaving on a lead that may be your first problem, obedience also gives your dog the message that you are the leader? Im not sure what type of obedience you have/have not done, so Im not flaming you, I just think it might help establish you as leader first...does that make sense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted July 13, 2008 Share Posted July 13, 2008 A prong collar would help with walking but if she hasnt been taught to heel when walking, with turns etc and standing by your side or simple obedience like behaving on a lead that may be your first problem, obedience also gives your dog the message that you are the leader? I tend to think the opposite of this. I do not seek to train a dog to heel until it has first learnt to walk on a loose lead. I think the PPCollar will help you but I would recommend some tutoring (one-on-one is ideal) both before, during and after to ensure that your lead handling skills are what they should and need to be. Your dog's 'slinking' can be indicative of confusion, which generally comes from not having understood our training. This can be from numerous things, not the least being our timing of use of equipment and praise. I'd like to know that this has been checked before thinking about training equipment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rysup Posted July 14, 2008 Author Share Posted July 14, 2008 Thanks guys, As I said, I dont do ANY obedience as such. I have trained as an obedience instructor many moons ago, but its not my interest as such. I ONLY want her to walk on a loose lead and stand for exam, thats it, I dont want sits, drops and stays, at this point in time. I can teach all my other dogs to heal, but she just doesnt get it, and I am having trouble getting her to that point now because she is so strong. Thats why I thought a prong collar might give me a bit better control so I CAN teach her things. She is probably going back to her breeder for a while, to see what they think. Apparently her mother wont walk on a lead either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tatelina Posted July 14, 2008 Share Posted July 14, 2008 I have not done any obedience work with her, it is not my interest at this point in time, but we have worked constantly on walking on lead, standing, and all the sort of things you do when you show. Yet she cannot even get that part.So anyway do you think a prong collar might be of help here? Are you serious?? In the nicest way possible perhaps the reason she can't 'get' the walking on lead part is because her 'training' is all over the place and confusing. It really irritates me when people seek the easy way out instead of doing solid basic training. Perhaps you should be asking for additional training advice as after a year of training to 'walk on the lead, standing and all sorts of things you do when you show' you can't get what you're after, perhaps you're doing something wrong! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke W Posted July 14, 2008 Share Posted July 14, 2008 (edited) It sounds like your OH has taught her that pulling gets her where she wants to go - even if it is unpleasant, she still gets there. Have you tried the old 'stand still as soon as there is tension on the lead' method? Shoveling treats into her as she walks by your side? From a couple of your comments (and I could be wrong) - I get the impression you've been trying to get her to walk on a loose lead by ever increasing intensity leash jerks. So now you want to up the intensity by introducing a prong collar. You mentioned you were trained as an obedience instructor many moons ago - perhaps methods have changed since then - maybe another method might work better. Edited July 14, 2008 by Luke W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haven Posted July 14, 2008 Share Posted July 14, 2008 If I give her a correction on a normal choker, she drops to the ground. She started slinking around, like she hates being on the lead. Just curious to know what you do when this happens and how long before she stops this behaviour and walks normally again? Lots of dogs learn very quickly that this response is the fast track to getting some attention because owners reinforce the behaviour by patting, soothing or picking up the dog. It is more often a learned behaviour rather than what looks like a fearful reaction to a big correction IME. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mushaka Posted July 14, 2008 Share Posted July 14, 2008 A prong collar does not up the intensity from what Ive been led to believe. Its is a training tool,that is different,but not more intense on the dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seita Posted July 14, 2008 Share Posted July 14, 2008 You may not necessarily need a prong but personally I preffer them to teach a dog to walk on a loose lead. Speak to Enry or K9force and they should be able to get on the right track for loose lead walking and be able to make sure you use a prong correctly if that's what is required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rysup Posted July 14, 2008 Author Share Posted July 14, 2008 Tatelina, I am NOT seeking the EASY way out. I was just asking a question. Thanks. I do not know if the prong is the right tool for my needs, so I asked, would you rather I just went and got myself one without finding out? Why do you think her training is all over the place and confusing? What makes you assume that? Haven, I sure dont give her any sort of attention when she does it, I try to ignore the behaviour. You may be right, OH may have taught her to pull, I dont go with them, so I dont really know. When she does the slink thing, she will often keep doing it for a few minutes Luke - no I dont just jerk her around, in fact I probably dont give corrections with the chain very often at all. I try to keep our practice sessions up beat, but I do find that I need to keep constant pressure on the lead. She would just hoover the ground otherwise, or pull me along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke W Posted July 14, 2008 Share Posted July 14, 2008 Luke - no I dont just jerk her around, in fact I probably dont give corrections with the chain very often at all. I try to keep our practice sessions up beat, but I do find that I need to keep constant pressure on the lead. She would just hoover the ground otherwise, or pull me along. Cool - no problem. No offence meant. Good luck...I know my pup drove me insane for a little while pulling on his lead! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haven Posted July 14, 2008 Share Posted July 14, 2008 I think it would be a good idea to have a session with another trainer, someone who can watch both your body language and that of your dog to give you a clearer idea of what's going on, sometimes it can be hard to judge when you're the one holding the leash. There could be any number of reasons why she behaves the way she does when corrected and it may make a difference to your success (or lack of) with another type of collar, prong or otherwise. A prong collar isn't the big nasty last resort so many people make it out to be (as you're probably aware). I've seen small breeds on prongs, I've even seen service and assistance dogs trained on prongs, used correctly there is no reason why you couldn't or shouldn't use one in place of any other collar if that is what works best for you and your dog. Having said that, it's entirely possible to teach some dogs to walk on a loose lead with a flat collar but it sounds to me like your issue is a training/behavioural problem rather than one with the actual training aid. I suspect that even if you do try a prong with early success, the issues you are having may reappear quickly if they are not identified and dealt with. On a side note, I never understand why people get knocked for "taking the easy way out". Taking the easy way out is the smart thing to do, not the wrong thing to do. A problem solved is a problem solved, if you can achieve comparable results in significantly less time with less stress and fuss for dog and owner, why on earth wouldn't you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Midol Posted July 14, 2008 Share Posted July 14, 2008 On a side note, I never understand why people get knocked for "taking the easy way out". Taking the easy way out is the smart thing to do, not the wrong thing to do. A problem solved is a problem solved, if you can achieve comparable results in significantly less time with less stress and fuss for dog and owner, why on earth wouldn't you I've also had trouble understanding why people are opposed to taking the easy way out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rysup Posted July 14, 2008 Author Share Posted July 14, 2008 Thanks haven. Yes I have been chatting to a few people, and think that the problems I am having may not be permanently fixed with a prong. Especially as I cannot show her on one, so she may more than likely learn the difference between collars. I am going to try and talk to some trainers who can see what she is doing and we will go from there. And I do agree, an easy fix, is still a fix, so long as it is fixed, why is the easy way any worse than the hard way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Midol Posted July 14, 2008 Share Posted July 14, 2008 Thanks haven.Yes I have been chatting to a few people, and think that the problems I am having may not be permanently fixed with a prong. Especially as I cannot show her on one, so she may more than likely learn the difference between collars. I am going to try and talk to some trainers who can see what she is doing and we will go from there. And I do agree, an easy fix, is still a fix, so long as it is fixed, why is the easy way any worse than the hard way? Don't let her learn the difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rysup Posted July 14, 2008 Author Share Posted July 14, 2008 Please explain? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akitaowner Posted July 14, 2008 Share Posted July 14, 2008 like any aid - they can be weaned off so the dog doesnt associate the correction with a particular feel of a particular collar... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Midol Posted July 14, 2008 Share Posted July 14, 2008 (edited) Yep. The dog only learns that he can get away with pulling when the prong is removed if you let him learn that. You need to use the collar so the dog doesn't associate the corrections with the collar... so they only associate the correction with the behaviour. That's my understanding of it anyway. Anyone is free to correct me if I am wrong. Edited July 14, 2008 by Lord Midol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haven Posted July 14, 2008 Share Posted July 14, 2008 Yep.The dog only learns that he can get away with pulling when the prong is removed if you let him learn that. You need to use the collar so the dog doesn't associate the corrections with the collar... so they only associate the correction with the behaviour. That's my understanding of it anyway. Anyone is free to correct me if I am wrong. You're correct, it's just not as easy when you're talking about an already established behaviour and belief system. This dog already knows that pulling on the current collar is doable, so if the prong works she's very likely to know the difference. In this case the OP would need to teach the dog that the "old rules" of being able to pull successfully no longer apply to the old collar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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