Separation Anxiety

[Ciara]

I've read up alot about separation anxiety, and today when looking for something for a 'friend' I found something I've never read before...the underlined section.

There are two main reasons dogs experience separation anxiety. They are either too passive and rely too much on you, or they are too dominant and they think they own their territory. The latter experiences a different kind of anxiety when you leave. The dominant dog thinks of you as its subordinate, so when you leave it wonders how youll survive without it. That stresses the animal.

Just a question for the trainers here..

How often do you think the latter applies in dogs that are symptomatic of separation anxiety?

My dog whines/barks and cries whenever I leave the house, and stops once he can't see me or hear the car anymore etc...

(I know about the car because I've tried it with someone else driving same car and dog thinks i've gone out.)

When I get home, he will bark until the keys go in the front door and he hears footsteps in the house... He sets off my Chihuahua now too!

I was told he had separation anxiety, and that I needed to do a de-sensitization program with him.

This was 8-9years ago, and although I did the program, had good success ~ to a degree ~ he still shows these behaviours and he is now 10years old.

Now obviously he is stressed when I go somewhere without him. He is however, alot better with the company of another dog.

The only time he never displayed this behaviour was when he lived with a Staffy that was dominant over him, and would not allow him to bark when I left the house. :D

But I'm sure he would have still been stressed inside, just did not bark as a result.

He has never destroyed anything, never chewed anything other than his bones or toys, he has never had any toileting accidents inside the house when left alone, and has never hurt himself or damaged anything as a result of his stressing over my leaving.

So whatever type of sep anx he has, it must be mild, yes?

How do I determine if his separation anxiety is a result of him being dominant or passive?

He has good basic obedience, he doesn't display any obvious dominance gestures towards me, (other than craving my attention and trying to demand it)..

I've basically given up on his barking when I leave/get home situation... not much I can do now that he has the habit and is 10years old.

But, how do I figure out the exact cause of this behaviour? Why does he do this?

As a side note ~ he used to bark incessantly whenever I tethered him... cry and whine and fidget if tied at the front of a shop etc.

Since re-training, he will sit or lay down and just wait, but keep an intent eye on me to see where I went. Thankfully he no longer barks like an idiot when he is tied up.

Was his barking when tethered related to separation anxiety, or was it related to him being dominant and demanding my return?

I've had so much different information about dog training that I have to question everything now before I believe what I'm told. ;)

I was told his barking was related to separation anxiety, now I'm not entirely sure.

Any ideas? :D

[tommy15]

i dunno but im getting puppy a muzzle until i fugure something out, i cant handle it it literally makes my head pound inside.

I wonder how you know which type of seperation anxiety your dog has, that would be interesting.

salli my bloke may have the second one, the only reason i say that is because i get the feeling that his saying "i demand that we leave immedietly" rather than "im afraid and i need to be comforted". Also, he is wagging his tail while he does it, and he does not stop if you talk to him, pat him, or whatever, only when you untie him he will stop.

For example he does it even when i sit down right next to him on a walk, he starts, he wants to keep going. Then again, maybe im mixing it up, maybe his shop barking, and this barking, are 2 seperate issues

Yeh but sorry, beyond explaining what my dog does i cant really help anymore than that i dont know

[Ciara]

Yep, youre the reason I started this thread. :D

I wondered the same thing, and then started wondering about what I was told about my dog.

It's very frustrating when you're told different thigns and then find out ~ years later ~ that you were told the wrong information.

I mean, everyone has to start somewhere and it'd be nice to be able to trust and believe a dog trainer when you first get your dog and try to do the right thing.

My dog used to do the same thing as yours, but now he isnt so bad... but I did put alot of work into training him when he was younger, only when I had kids that the training and any ideas of competitive obedience went out the window.

It'd be very interesting to hear what the reasons for this barking are, and if it is related to separation anxiety, or not.

Until today, I never knew taht there could be a dominance aspect to separation anxiety... where the hell have I been?

[tommy15]

It's very frustrating when you're told different thigns and then find out ~ years later ~ that you were told the wrong information.

Dogs are a whole different species to us, any trainer that claims to properly understand what thier thinking is full of the proverbial. Its just interpreting thier behaviour, experimenting, and then pretty much guessing, thats why everyone says something different.

Something you were told must have been ok though, if your dog improved his behaviour ..

[Steve K9Pro]

Salli:

How often do you think the latter applies in dogs that are symptomatic of separation anxiety?

K9: never...

Anxiety watching you leave? maybe.... out of site, out of mind for other times though.

My dog whines/barks and cries whenever I leave the house, and stops once he can't see me or hear the car anymore etc...

K9: see, I told ya.

I was told he had separation anxiety, and that I needed to do a de-sensitization program with him.

This was 8-9years ago, and although I did the program, had good success ~ to a degree ~ he still shows these behaviours and he is now 10years old.

K9: I have to argue that you had good success, it seems to me the reaction on the dogs part just manifested into something else...

The only time he never displayed this behaviour was when he lived with a Staffy that was dominant over him, and would not allow him to bark when I left the house. 

But I'm sure he would have still been stressed inside, just did not bark as a result.

K9: the anxiety/stress was still there, the dog was just being corrected for the outward signs, this can be hard on a dog.

So whatever type of sep anx he has, it must be mild, yes?

K9: without a proper assessment, you dont know what he has or hasnt got. Maybe as he has been corrected the outward signs arent obvious?

How do I determine if his separation anxiety is a result of him being dominant or passive?

K9: by first having an evaluation completed.

But, how do I figure out the exact cause of this behaviour? Why does he do this?

K9: behaviour consultant.

As a side note ~ he used to bark incessantly whenever I tethered him... cry and whine and fidget if tied at the front of a shop etc.

Since re-training, he will sit or lay down and just wait, but keep an intent  eye on me to see where I went. Thankfully he no longer barks like an idiot when he is tied up.

K9: he learned that barking gained him no success, so he gave it up, this tells you clearly that it wasnt a reaction to stress, but an ACTIOn to get you to do something.

*********************

K9: Tommy, you will be where Salli is in no time with her dog, reading your threads your dog has had every condition known to man, & you have attempted to cure them with your ideas of how it should be, & no professional advice or diagnosis top even confirm you have a problem.

As these problems have come along of late, even at a distance I can tell you that your causing the majority of the probelms, if your concern is for your dog, you will take this as advice, not an insult.

All of your actions to date have gotten you where? Your considering a muzzle now, you lay down & are pounded by your dog on your arrival?

I know your intentions are the best, but your simply taking all the wromng steps, dont take it from me, look at your dogs behaviour....

Tommy:

Dogs are a whole different species to us, any trainer that claims to properly understand what thier thinking is full of the proverbial. Its just interpreting thier behaviour, experimenting, and then pretty much guessing, thats why everyone says something different.

K9: Just like Doctors I guess, they have no idea whats inside until they cut you open.

Something you were told must have been ok though, if your dog improved his behaviour

K9: or of course the dog is now OLDER...

[Ciara]

So what I read about dogs displaying separation anxiety out of dominance isn't possible? Just wondering because I've never read that before.

Number 1. Find me a behaviour consultant in Adelaide that knows wtf he is doing and I'd use it.

Number 2. The separation anxiety symptoms eased after I did a behavioural program that was intended to stop separatian anxiety...

Number 3. What the hell does this mean:

K9: Tommy, you will be where Salli is in no time with her dog, reading your threads your dog has had every condition known to man

Edited September 16, 2004 by Salli

[Steve K9Pro]

So what I read about dogs displaying separation anxiety out of dominance isn't possible?  Just wondering because I've never read that before.

K9: nothing is IM possible, but you can rule it out.

Number 1. Find me a behaviour consultant in Adelaide that knows wtf he is doing and I'd use it.

K9: would you like anything else? how about some fries? Instead of research SA, look for a BC.

I heard there is one coming down to Vic soon.. :D

Number 2. The separation anxiety symptoms eased after I did a behavioural program that was intended to stop separatian anxiety...

K9: are you saying the symptoms are barking etc? How do you know the dog has less anxiety? what was your program...

Number 3. What the hell does this mean: 

QUOTE 

K9: Tommy, you will be where Salli is in no time with her dog, reading your threads your dog has had every condition known to man

K9: It means that despite you seeking advice, & following it, you didnt get success as in hindsight you found that the advice you were given wasnt the best, your problems became habitual & now the dog is senior, it would be unfair to try & alter his behaviour.

I certainly dont feel you have done anything wrong, just been led astray, & I advise Tommy seek some pro help right now, before the behaviour becomes habit.

Despite what he may think, we can understand & interpret behaviours quite accurately.

Edited September 16, 2004 by K9 Force

[Ciara]

K9: It means that despite you seeking advice, & following it, you didnt get success as in hindsight you found that the advice you were given wasnt the best, your problems became habitual & now the dog is senior, it would be unfair to try & alter his behaviour.

Well I tried, unfortunately the world is full of useless advisors and unless you have an expert (which none exist in S.A) it makes it rather difficult to go it alone and fix serious problems when you're a newbie.

Seeing as he is old, I don't intend on fixing him. He is happy and I am home most of the time, and when I go out for more than half an hour, I leave him with a bone, which means he doesnt bark when I go out, too busy munching that to worry about me for the moment.

K9: would you like anything else? how about some fries?  Instead of research SA, look for a BC.

Yes I'd like a double choc icecream with flake thanks. :D

I heard there is one coming down to Vic soon.. 

Yes, but as my dog is *senior*, it wouldnt be fair to stress the dog further by flying him with me, and putting him through training. :D ;)

Thanks for answering my question though.

[Steve K9Pro]

S

Well I tried, unfortunately the world is full of useless advisors and unless you have an expert (which none exist in S.A) it makes it rather difficult to go it alone and fix serious problems when you're a newbie.

K9: I know its difficult, you would be surprised how an evaluation & program set by the right person can change things...

Yes, but as my dog is *senior*, it wouldnt be fair to stress the dog further by flying him with me, and putting him through training

K9: I dont add stress, I remove it.

[tommy15]

no thats cool i know that im not a dog behaviour expert, and i also know that i make lots of mistakes

about the muzzle though, i have to do something, until i get this behaviour to improve, his going to have to keep his beak shut one way or another

and k9, i will seek help for this from my trainer. i have never mentioned it to here before.

Yes, but as my dog is *senior*, it wouldnt be fair to stress the dog further by flying him with me, and putting him through training

I actually think dogs find training fun and rewarding ... :D your dog might really appreciate it

[tommy15]

this "evaluation and program" set by a trainer, do you mean evaluating and improving his behaviour across the board ?

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: thats great Tommy, but you dont need a TRAINER, you need a behaviourist or behaviour consultant.

Your dogs behaviour requires modification, not learn a new skill or train an old one.

[Ciara]

and k9, i will seek help for this from my trainer. i have never mentioned it to here before.

Hasn't she noticed your dog barking at you for attention during the classes?

My dog was rather blatant and did it alot. :D

[tommy15]

no salli i mean i was interacting with him the whole time, he was never tied up, his always getting lots of praise from her, his not in a situation were he feels the need to start his nonsense

edit : k9: i didnt realise there was a difference between trainer and behaviourist. but thanks.

Edited September 16, 2004 by tommy15

[Ciara]

Praise from her? Are you training him or is she?

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: In actual fact, the dog is training them both, pet me & I will not show you undesireable behaviours.................

[Miss Boss Doggy]

Hi Tommy

Putting a muzzle on a dog suffering separation anxiety (if that's what he's got, I'm not a behaviourist...), will more than likely increase his anxiety and, because he can no longer bark, he will have to find another outlet.. possibly something destructive...

Separation anxiety is an abnormal dependance on human beings. Most dogs suffering from it just want to be around people, ANY people, doesn't necessarily have to be their owner. When there is no human around they are VERY anxious (Salli, if your dog stops barking when you are out of earshot, and then acts quite normal, it doesn't sound like SA to me, but like I said, not a behaviourist!) There are desensitisation programs that you can use to help your dog adjust, but you really need to speak to a QUALIFIED behaviourist. Go to http://www.deltasocietyaustralia.com.au and follow the link the Veterinary Behaviourists to find one near you.

[tommy15]

well, i havnt yet found a proper solution that has worked. His barking has probably gotten worse in some cases, but better in others.

when i was on a flight recently, when the flight attendants were yapping on about safety before the flight took off, the whole plane could hear my dog barking from cargo !

anyway, i was trying to teach him not to be this way without using corrections, but it just hasnt worked. The last few weeks i have been immedietly and sturnly correcting him in some situations, and it is working.

I only correct him if we are somewere that barking is a big neusance, like if im at a coffee shop, and his standing next to me barking at me. All other situations i just let him go, becuase i dont like using corrections on him, i dont agree with training that way.

So what i do is just say NO ! and hold his mouth shut for a few moments, and do that everytime his about to start barking at me again, after 3-4 repititions he stays quiet until we go.

[puakenikeni]

I only correct him if we are somewere that barking is a big neusance..All other situations i just let him go

Hi Tommy

I dont know if i should give any advice because i have my own little issues with my little one, but im thinking that if you think his barking has probably gotten worse.. then its because of a lack of consistency.

My little one is becoming a handful right now because of stuff that i let her get away with every now and again and because i would correct her in one situation and then let her do the exact same thing in another situation so now she thinks that barking all the time is fine ;) .

I know now that doing that sends mixed messages and doesnt help you try to manage the problem.

Maybe you could try to correct him each and every time he starts yapping and see if that alleviates the problem any? Obviously changes wont happen overnight and I know you've said that you dont agree with this method of training but if it was your only option you'd be prepared to see if it would work right?

Good luck..

[Guest Tess32]

I only correct him if we are somewere that barking is a big neusance, like if im at a coffee shop, and his standing next to me barking at me. All other situations i just let him go, becuase i dont like using corrections on him, i dont agree with training that way.

Well that's part of the problem, you are making it worse. In fact you're reinforcing the behaviour and probably making it stronger.

He wants to bark. You correct him sometimes, but not others times, so he has a 50/50 chance to be allowed to bark and so will continue trying, especially because it sometimes works. A variable reinforcement always strengthens the behaviour unfortuantely in this case!

Think of the pokies. People might lose money 10 goes in a row, and then win another 3 games, which means they keep playing because they think the machine will eventually pay out. If every few goes you keep winning, you play even longer.

It's all or nothing. Choose a method you want to use, and stick to it, every single time.

Have you started to praise him and reward him for when he *is* quiet?

Nat