Natural Diet

[sithspawn]

Okay guys. I posted on here asking a question about the suitability of the Wendy Volhards Natural Diet. Well no one had heard about it apparently.

So heres a link to a site with the recipe on there

Natural Diet

Its about 3/4 done the page, and is under the heading Option 2. If you could give me your thoughts on whether or not this appears to constitute a good diet, i would be really appreciative

(i am aware that the recipe looks better than most of the stuff we humans eat. Its definately better than anything i get!!!)

[sithspawn]

oh, and just another question while im thinking about it. This is for vets, breeders or anyone feeding a raw diet:

can dogs take the same vitamins we do? or do they need specially forumlated ones??

[Steve]

As I said in your earlier thread I dont think dogs who are being fed a raw food diet with enough variety need suppliments and its the component of Wendy's diet I dont like. Not enough variety and suppliments needed.

You can give a dog the same vitamins as humans Just remember to equate the dosage with th weight of the dog . Usually a childrens vitamin will do.

[sithspawn]

Well i look at it this way steve:

If i were to eat a well balanced diet like that, eg meat, vegetables, fruit and bread based products, i would still need certain vitamins to have a nutritionally balanced day. THe human body does not produce certain vitamins, namely c and e. And we also dont produce enough of the vitamin b complex.

So on top of a well balanced diet, humans need to consume thosse three vitamins for a completely healthy lifestyle.

Wouldnt it be the same for dogs????

[sithspawn]

And if you dont agree with this diet, could you suggest one that you yourself use, or you think is good?

I am trying to plan ahead for our puppies arrival (january)

[Steve]

I feed a raw food diet . The aim is to feed a diet full of variety which is balanced over time [around a period of about a week] Dogs manufacture their own vitamin C and a raw food diet should be able to provide all of the vitamins and minerals needed for good health. Ive 8 kids and I dont give them added vitamins on a daily basis I give them some now and then if the appetite has been rotten or they have been sick etc but the basic principal is that a balanced , varied diet is all thats required . All of the necessary vitamins and minerals are available through feeding this method. Once you start to suppliment some things you run the risk that you are knocking something else out. When you enlist a recipe the chances of over doing something or underdoing it increase and its my opinion that the more variety the better rather than getting locked into a set feeding plan. I also dont feed any grains.

[aatainc]

If i were to eat a well balanced diet like that, eg meat, vegetables, fruit and bread based products, i would still need certain vitamins to have a nutritionally balanced day. THe human body does not produce certain vitamins, namely c and e. And we also dont produce enough of the vitamin b complex.

This is not true. Think about it. How did all those people survive before vitamin supplements were invented? If you eat a well balanced diet then you don't need vitamins. Note: on the back of every packet of vitamin supplements it reads: "Note: Vitamins can ONLY be of assistance IF the DIETARY vitamin intake is inadequate."

In other words, supplements are designed to be instead of dietary vitamins, not as well as.

The vitamins not produced by the body (of either human or dog) are designed to be eaten by them in the diet, not in tablet form! How do you think all those people who dont' take supplements survive?

So on top of a well balanced diet, humans need to consume thosse three vitamins for a completely healthy lifestyle.

No, they don't. They only need to consume them if their diet is NOT well balanced. We get them from the diet.

Have a bit of vegemite for your b vitamins.

And I agree with steve, you can use human vitamins - if they are a single formulation. However multivitamins with different amounts of different substances I think would be best specifically for a dog.

I feed a raw food diet and I only use the following "supplements"

-Vegemite because I know my dogs don't get enough vit. B

-Honey - for lots of trace minerals

-Apple Cider Vinegar - to help get rid of my dog's yeast infection

-Oils - for essential fatty acids.

I am also using "megaderm" at the moment on one of my dogs who has dry skin.

I would give other supplements like vitamin C etc if the dog had a health problem, was very old or recovering from severe stress or previous bad diet.

I also agree with Steve that variety is much better than the same menu. While a recipe guideline is a good idea for starting off.

To answer your specific question about the Volhard's diet - there's a few things I don't like.

She asks for a multimineral supplement for pups which will almost always include calcium. She then adds plain meat with no bone. While these two may balance each other out for calcium/phosphorous adding ANY artificial calcium to pups is really playing with fire!. I would absolutely not ever supplement calcium unless the vet prescribed a specific shortage.

Secondly, she uses plain meat without bone as the basis for the diet. Once again, dangerous - this is likely to be too high in phosphorous.

Raw meat on the bone is much safer than de-boned meat - for getting the balance right.

Thirdly - grain everyday is far too much. Some raw feeders do without grain altogether and I have no problem with it. I add just a 1/2 cup of oats to my barf mix which helps bind it together. This mix lasts a week for a dog dog 1/2 cup of oats a week is hardly anything. I certainly wouldn't be feeding the amounts she recommends every day though.

I think the plan is far too complicated in general.

I would be going with my pup's BARF diet.

If you want a copy email me and I'll send it to you as an attachment - it's great.

[sithspawn]

There actually are a lot of problems that vitamins have fixed...back before vitamins a lot of vitman deficiency related problems were around. Although eating an orange would help give you vitamin C, it is not enough. The vitamin C tablet is a much more efficient way of getting vitamin C into your blood stream. This is just an example. The same goes for all the other vitamins. Vitamin E is especially like this. There are not many foods in an every day persons life-style that contains a LOT of vitamin E. I can list a few that contain vitamin E that oyu might consume in everyday life, olive oil, peanuts, mango (i wish i had that everyday!!), sweet potatoe. But these foods contain such a little amount of vitman E, you should be taking it in tablet form to complete the amount your body SHOULD have.

Not taking these vitmans does not mean you wont survive. But these are the required amount of vitimans you should have.

You are thinking about a multi-vit that has that suggestion on the back. Whole tablet vitamins (eg vitamin C) dont require you too eat an orange to get the vitamin C you need......

With the de-boned meat thing, why is that not safe?? We eat de-boned meat all the time.....i wouldnt be using anyhting other than a low-grade steak minced myself. (same as we eat for mince)

And I would love it if you could send me that diet. my email is [email protected]

[Staff'n'Toller]

Sithspawn,

You shouldn't give dogs human vitamins, they need different dosages.

You should start feeding a well balanced raw diet and go from there, there will be signs if the dog needs supplementing i.e. the coat is dull or skin is dry- needs essential fatty acids.

When you give synthetic vitamins you force the dogs system to use it, there are just as many illnesses from oversupplementing as undersupplementing.

Maybe no-one answered because no-one feeds Wendy Volhards diet.

You need to get 'Grow your pups with bones' or 'Give your dog a bone' by Dr Ian Billinghurst, an Australian Vet who has written these about the BARF diet.

Mel.

[Steve]

I really do think its a bit of a push to describe this diet as a natural one.

Im unsure of where you get your info from re vitamins etc but I dont agree with much of what you say regarding the need for suppliments and to ask me to go with the idea that adding synthetic vitamins is better for you than fresh food is much too hard.

If you feed a dog meat which has phophorous in it [a mineral] the body needs various other nutrients for it to assimilate properly The big one in this case is calcium. If you dont feed calcium with the meat the body uses the calcium thats in the body to be able to metabolise it . So a classic symptom of a calcium deficiency is when you see a dog that doesnt look like its walking on its toes but morelike its walking onits pasterns. By the way there is a ton of diferent types of calcium . Some types cant be assimilated by the dog at all and some need huge amounts like in kilo lots to do any good. Feeding raw meaty bonesgives you not only the right type of calcium but the magnesium and also the right ratio of calcium to phosphorous.

Vitamin C needs other vitamins to assimilate properly . One obvious one is iron . Add the vitaminC wihout the iron and it will need to be found inthe body to be able to get from one end to the other. Fruits and vegies have boththe iron vitamin C and folic acid to make the whole thing do what its supposed to do.

Dogs dont assimilate vitamins the same way as humans and dogs arent exposed to things like caffiene and tannin which kill off vit B.etc Dogs actually manufacture their own vitamin C but they need to have the nutrients needed in the rght ratio to be able to do this effectively.

Every single nutrient needs others to be able to function. Add too much of one without nough of another and over time problems will show. Because it doesnt happen straight away you dont blame the diet but everything is reliant on minute quantities of all the amino acids, vitamins and minerals interacting with each other.

I do agree that you need to add things if you are feeding a commercial diet because the vitamins and many of the other nutrients are killed off in the processing and storing process, there are no live emzymes and most if not all have many minerals missing . Many of the grains block the absorption of some nutients as well.

Ive used this example before but it helps to understand a little better If you take two chemicals oxegen and hydrogen you get water . This is capable of putting out most fires but if you separate them then on their own they are capable of fuelling the biggest fires on earth. Its the same princial when you add any nutient in the wrong proportion . If you suppliment at all a multi vitamin and mineral is heaps better than choosing just one or two.

If you want to feed this diet then Ive seen worse and full marks for taking the time to have a look but my opinion is that you can do much better more cheaply. My advice to you in your other thread was to have a good look at the BARF diet sites and study them a little before you make the decision to go this way.

Here are some links that may be helpful in getting a fair view of what I would call a natural diet which is certainly not this one.

http://www.bluegrace.com/barf.html

http://www.rawmeatybones.com/

http://www.barfworld.com/html/learn_more/barf_pups.shtml

http://www.barfworld.com/main.shtml

http://www.barfers.com/bigpicture.html

[sithspawn]

Thanks very much for the links. I havent gone over them yet but i will have a look at them later on tonight (in the middle of an assignment right now)

I wasn tsaying that synthetic vitamins are better for you than fresh food, but sometimes they are needed to fulloy give your body the intake of vitamins required. Any nutritionalist will give you this information.

anyway, thats not really important. i feel that this diet, from what i know, seems to be fine. Although from my reading, and based on your opinions, it does seem to help to have variety. Although, saying THAT, this diet has been clinically tested over a long period of time, and shown to have great results. Lack of skin problems, dcreased musco-skeletal problems, and increased longevity have all been shown to be benefits of this diet. The BARF diet can boast no such things, as far as i have read. That doesnt mean it is worse, just that this diet can boast a bit more credentials...

I would love to get my hands on the two books by Ian, but currently the cheapest i can find them is

Give your dog a bone: $60

grow your pups with bones: 112.95

i cant really afford that much. If anyone has them second hand that they dont need that would be great. I would be happy to buy them off you.

Anyway, thanks again for all the info. I have by no means decided anything. I can tell this is going to be a long and painful process.....Ill talk to a couple of Golden breeders and see what they think, and try and get my hands on those books. In the mean-time, any more advice would be very much appreciated, as i want all the info i can get to make sure i do the best thing for our upcoming puppy

Edited September 16, 2004 by sithspawn

[griff]

Give Your Dog a Bone - $ 33.65

Grow Your Pup With Bones - $ 37.05

on line purchase at , http://www.rnswcc.org.au/Bookshop.html

[sithspawn]

crap. i always seem to miss places like that.

thanks for that griff. very much appreciated

[Steve]

You can access these books from any good library and most of whats inthem is on line anyway.

My backgound is in nutrition [human ] and herbal medicine and I promise you there's nothing you can suppliment with that does a better job than having a balanced varied diet .

[Tabata]

I wasn tsaying that synthetic vitamins are better for you than fresh food, but sometimes they are needed to fulloy give your body the intake of vitamins required. Any nutritionalist will give you this information.

I think you'd also find plenty of nutritionists who would tell you the exact opposite, that the fundamental principles of good nutrition are a balanced variety of foods, which provides all the vitamins you need and that unless you're treating a specific problem very carefully supplementation is useless at best and dangerous at worst. A good example I can think of would be beta-carotene. It was found that foods high in beta-carotene seemed to protect against heart disease and cancer, but two large clinical trials showed groups given beta-carotene in supplement form actually had increased risk of lung cancer. There's lots of other examples of supplements having unexpected effects.

I've never given a dog a vitamin supplement in my life and don't think they've suffered for it. What I do feed is plenty of varied meaty bones (REALLY meaty, way more meat than bone), some fish, a few organs, and a bit of veg. Thats about it really. I can't send you any recipes because I don't use them. The main thing I noticed about the Volhard diet was it all seems SO complicated, I just couldn't be bothered with it. Plus, all the benefits Wendy claims her diet gives my dogs seem to have too - like healthy coats, clean teeth, lack of smell, etc.

(Oh, the other thing I noticed was the whole enzyme-thing reared its ugly head again... but I promise I won't go there, Steve )

Hope that helps, although the more people you ask about diet the more different opinions you'll probably get. I try to do what works for me and my dogs and not stress too much about it.

[sithspawn]

I know its going to be one of those thigns where everyone has their own opinion. But because i have never fed a dog a raw home-made diet, i dont really know where to start. If i just fed what i think is right - i owuld probably miss some important things. Thats why i wouldnt mind having a basic recipe to follow - even if its only for the first month or so. Ill have a look at the library for those books, thanks for that suggestion.

see, i dont see giving suppliments that big a deal. Only specific ones though. From what ive seen on dog diets, there arent many thigns that contain a lot of vitamin e or c that are given to the dog. in this case, a supplement would probably be a good thing?

[aatainc]

If there's not many things being given to dogs with Vit C and E in them, then change the diet!

The vit C is less of a concern though as dogs do produce it. Billinghurst does actually recommend a vitamin E supplement I believe but I personally dont' bother.

Steve has explained what I meant about feeding plain meat as dangerous.

Dogs are different in their requirements to humans. In a lot of ways, yes, you can compare the two, but dont' automatically assume it works.

As for clinical trials, she hasn't cited any actual studies on her website, which I find odd, if genuine clinical trials have been conducted - they would have been officially written up.

BARF diets produce exactly the same results she's listed. and we have heaps of proof of that from BARFers here in Aussie.

The practical experience of DOLers amounts to hundreds of dogs fed BARF that have all done very well. In fact, I have not heard of even one report from a DOLer that they changed their dogs over to a good quality BARF diet and results did not improve.

Myself alone, I have case studies from 43 dogs fed BARF. (my own case studies, not formally recorded - but I should one day!)

I also have a nutritional analysis of my BARF formula which shows that the balance of my diet for protein, calcium, phosphorous etc is exactly within the guidelines put out by the National Research Council for nutrient requirements of dogs.

I got a very high mark for that paper from the fac. of ag. and vet sciences so I trust my results.

Honestly, the main problem with this diet is the grain. There's far too much, like steve said, it's just not natural.

Note: her results of increased longevity, less muscular problems are compared to a commercial diet. BARF would probably do even better!