Major Problems With "stand"

[Luke W]

How would simply changing from a clicker to a word make any difference?

I can't use a drawn out 'gooood' because he NEVER stands still.

This post has been edited by Luke W: 11th Jul 2008 - 04:57 PM

The important point hasn't got a lot to do with the benefits of a marker word over a clicker for static exercises, more the point of giving the dog time to work out what you want from him, then helping out when needed.

How can you click (your release) if he never stands still? Also, if you do capture a stand with a click, you are teaching him to immediately break the stand to gain a reward. This method will never work.

I think a "no reward marker" is just as usefull as a positive one in this exercise. It will help explain each part of the exercise to the dog clearly, including when he is allowed to accept his reward.

Each no reward signal is followed by trying again, until you are able to capture a good quiet stand. You will find it a lot easier to get a bit of calm behavior by ditching the clicker and using your voice (because of past learnt behaviors), and also by getting the food off your body by teaching him to run to a reward target. You will find your dog will spend more time tuned into you, and spend less time looking for the food on "you".

I guess the point of the clicker in this case is to mark the stand (bum off the floor), however short. Then gradually shape the millisecond stand into longer and longer stand withholding the click on the shortest sands and reinforcing the longer ones.

I'm trying to avoid using NRMs at this stage, Karen Pryor suggests it can be discouraging to new learners (he's a 4 month old pup). I also need to keep the reinforcement rate high, otherwise he tends to shutdown and wander off.

I am slowly making progress (I think), by getting him to target my hand (with no food), then reward from the other hand (after taking the reward from a nearby bench).

Note: I don't think it's clicker training (or even training in general) I'm having so much trouble with, just this one exercise. He can sit, down, sit-stay, down-stay, hand touch, stick touch, bark, go to his mat, go into his pen, come out of his pen, walk on a loose lead, walk out around a pole, take it (food), off (don't take food)...

Finally, I really do appreciate your thoughts and I'm integrating your ideas into my training. I especially like the idea about getting the food off ME.

[dogdude]

Hi LukeW

I missed that you are wanting to get the dog to stand from a sitting position. What about teaching a stand from a walk first (to teach the command first) then when he understands what "stand" is..........move to a sitting postion.

A NRM used in an incorrect tone by a newbie can have negative effects on a young dog, but IMO the learning is accelerated, and has no ill effects if used properly, and if you know what to look for in regards to stress in your dog. Just try again ten minutes later. Make sure the pup is hungry.

If I saw learning stress in my pup (now 10 months old), I would immediately ask her to do something quick and simple that she was good at, ....reward in spades, then try again ten minutes later. I only had to do this when I was teaching her how to find heel.

[Luke W]

Thanks Dogdude.

I think we are slowly getting somewhere with the stand from sit...

As you can probably tell, this is the first time I've had a dog for over 20years and the first one I've ever tried to train positively.

I think he does show signs of learning stress (barking, whining, wandering off) and it worries me a bit. He'll often bark and bark and bark at me whenever he doesn't seem to understand something and/or the reinforcers aren't coming quickly enough and/or there's to many NRMs (I've tried to stop using NRMs at the moment, my normal NRM is a softly spoken 'uh').

I am going back to easy stuff (sits, downs, send to mat) which he enjoys a lot while I work out what I'm doing wrong.

Hi LukeW

I missed that you are wanting to get the dog to stand from a sitting position. What about teaching a stand from a walk first (to teach the command first) then when he understands what "stand" is..........move to a sitting postion.

A NRM used in an incorrect tone by a newbie can have negative effects on a young dog, but IMO the learning is accelerated, and has no ill effects if used properly, and if you know what to look for in regards to stress in your dog. Just try again ten minutes later. Make sure the pup is hungry.

If I saw learning stress in my pup (now 10 months old), I would immediately ask her to do something quick and simple that she was good at, ....reward in spades, then try again ten minutes later. I only had to do this when I was teaching her how to find heel.

[Leema]

Sorry, have not read whole thread, but here's my suggestions.

Stand means legs straight and still. It doesn't necessarily mean standing from a sit or from a drop - it just means legs straight and still.

What have you been clicking for? Straight and still or standing up? This might be your problem, clicking movement instead of the 'staying-in-a-stand' behaviour.

For me, it was fine to teach Clover with a lure to a stand - we clicked when she was still. We dropped lure ASAP, and she would take several steps until standing. Fine again. Once she knew the cue "stand" was "eventually have your legs straight and still" I would block forward movement and she started a kick back stand.

Often people have problems with stand, but I think most problems stem from trainers not knowing what they want, either. And if you don't know, how does the dog know? Make sure it is clear what you are going to click for.

[Luke W]

What have you been clicking for? Straight and still or standing up? This might be your problem, clicking movement instead of the 'staying-in-a-stand' behaviour.

Yup. I think this was one of the problems I caused.

[Leema]

Hope you see improvements soon, then.

[Tatelina]

You also should never give a cue until the pup knows EXACTLY what it is they are doing, give a hand signal and then shape the trick until they do it exactly how you want it, then give it a cue. A cue shouldnt be given until the action is exactly what your training for, otherwise it will confuse the dog later.

What? Do you mean cue as in a word? (ie don't start saying 'stand' until a wriggling pup gets the idea to stop wriggling?)

Also

Have you taught a hand target?

I teach sit to stand by getting them to stand up forward and target my hand, click, reward, very quick release.

Mel.

How do you teach a hand target?

Argh! So much to learn and so many threads to read through! Not sure if I should just start a new thread...

[Staff'n'Toller]

Don't worry I saw you updated it.

Here is an explanation of targetting, substitute stick for hand if you like, but later on the dog can 'target' anything you tell it to.

I teach it very easily in puppy school by rolling liver treats in both hands and presenting a hand that smells like treats, generally most pups pick it up in 3-5 reps, then I add a cue. If they are not getting it I quickly remove the hand wait a couple of seconds then re-present. You'd be amazed the amount of pups that try to get a treat for just *looking* at the target hand.

It's great for stand because you can start to remove the target and it becomes the hand signal instead.

It tends to become a very strong behaviour and is great in class situations where you have downtime with your dog or in situations where they are not comfortable.

Shirley Chong archives

[PAX]

I find most dogs can easily learn stand from a hand touch, they seem to quickly work out the difference between a hand touch and a stand signal once you get both behaviours and add a verbal.

Another way to teach stand is to sit in a chair and have your dog sit infront of your legs. As you get up from the chair the pup should hop up as well, it makes an easy way to free shape it. Don't do too many reps at once or they will remain sitting. Don't worry about duration until your dog knows the word 'stand'.

[ness]

PAX and think of all the problems you then create trying to get the dog to hold a DB and remain sitting while you sit on the chair .

[PAX]

Ness, it creates no problem at all.

[dooliekoolie]

I was given the following advise and it worked within minutes. (I've seen it work on a few dogs)

Place the dog on a table. If he stands there - click and treat.

My dog was was unsure of being high up so he just stood there - stunned I think - but it really worked.

Now he does a stand from the drop position.

Might be worth a shot

[Monah]

Hi LukeW

I missed that you are wanting to get the dog to stand from a sitting position. What about teaching a stand from a walk first (to teach the command first) then when he understands what "stand" is..........move to a sitting postion.

A NRM used in an incorrect tone by a newbie can have negative effects on a young dog, but IMO the learning is accelerated, and has no ill effects if used properly, and if you know what to look for in regards to stress in your dog. Just try again ten minutes later. Make sure the pup is hungry.

If I saw learning stress in my pup (now 10 months old), I would immediately ask her to do something quick and simple that she was good at, ....reward in spades, then try again ten minutes later. I only had to do this when I was teaching her how to find heel.

Hi LukeW, I agree with this, I think your pup is still quite young? For me, it's much easier if the dog walks to heel , then you pass your hand in front of his face and say staaaaaannnnnnd. Once they get the hang of what stand means, you can go onto more difficult things such as sit to stand. If he does not appear to know what 'stand' is, teaching sit to stand will be VERY difficult I also use a clicker but as a 'marker' not a release. I click the second my dogs 'get' what is asked of them, then treat, then I may even wait a few seconds until I release with a happy OK. I've used this for agility and flyball as it's hard sometimes to mark behaviour properly when they are doing things quickly. Maybe (if you are not already) you could click and reward the second he stands from a sit, very fast before he gets silly etc., then treat. Once he knows that standing up = treat, and he does it, then you can name the behaviour 'stand', Good boy!! Good stand etc. I do however think learning stand from heel to start with so he understands just what stand is may make life easier for you. Good luck, he's just adorable!!!

[caffy]

I missed that you are wanting to get the dog to stand from a sitting position. What about teaching a stand from a walk first (to teach the command first) then when he understands what "stand" is..........move to a sitting postion.

I'm a bit late on this thread.

Teaching a stand from a sit is very easy. Clicker and food in right hand, dog in sit and kneel next to dog. Keep dog's head high with food in right hand(you aren't releasing food yet, just letting them lick it ) and then tickle their rear foot...any movement with it backwards..click. Build it from there. Make sure you are "pushing" the food towards the dog to prevent the front feet moving forwards. You'll get a nice kickback stand doing it this way.

HTH

[Luke W]

haha - missed the resurectgion of this thread...

Still slowly working on the stand...he'll follow my fist around and stand from a sit or a down. Not perfectly, he'll still shuffle a little bit and mouth or touch my first - but it's much closer to what I want than it used to be.

He'll also stop in a stand position while healing (with a first in front of his nose)...

What I really want is to get the perfect kick-back stand from a sit or a down, or a stop-stand while healing - all with a verbal cue 'stand' or a hand signal (closed fist, waist high, outside line of body), without mouthing or nosing or shuffling...

I'll get there eventually.

[The Spotted Devil]

Be patient Luke W

Barkly is only a youngster still I think? One of the most important things I do now with Zig is actually make sure I am enjoying the process of him learning and it not just being a means to an end, if you know what I mean. It means you approach every lesson with a positive attitude and lots of enthusiasm....which, of course, rubs off on your dog. Relax, and enjoy the journey :p

[Luke W]

Be patient Luke W

Barkly is only a youngster still I think? One of the most important things I do now with Zig is actually make sure I am enjoying the process of him learning and it not just being a means to an end, if you know what I mean. It means you approach every lesson with a positive attitude and lots of enthusiasm....which, of course, rubs off on your dog. Relax, and enjoy the journey :p

Thanks TSD

I'm really looking forward to our get together - I'd really like some opinions on how he's going from people who've got experience in trialling....Maybe a quick look at his stand

Yes, still a youngster - 7mo.

[Luke W]

Barkly can stand now

How I did it (troubles along the way).

Started by using food to lure from a sit/down.

Then closed fist over food. Open fist as soon as he stood.

Then switched food to other hand. Now the closed fist is a hand signal. He was still touching my fist and shuffling at this stage.

Move to a table and get him used to stand on the table with the 'fist hand signal' - still touching the fist. Shuffles eliminated - no room to shuffle forward and the side to side shuffle just slowly disappeared.

Move back 6 inches from the table so he tried to touch my fist but couldn't because of the table edge. He now has a solid stand, no touching, no shuffling.

Relocate to the floor.

My hand signal for stand is now a quick 'punching down' motion with my right hand and a closed fist by the right side of my body. I have the verbal cue as well.

Just for others who might find it useful.

Edited November 24, 2008 by Luke W