Major Problems With "stand"

[Staff'n'Toller]

I'd go back to target without command, shouldn't be too hard to reestablish.

Agreed - he can probably target without a verbal cue already....you might surprise yourself. :D

[Luke W]

I would really suggest 101 things to do with a box if your having problems shaping, as it encourages the dog to offer you things and helps things to be shaped faster. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXKUAB33KYg

Another option is to use a mat and stop your dog when it reaches the mat and click and treat, making it a marker to the dog to help it learn.

You can use the mat to train alot of other things too, like walk along drops and sits. Gradually you could fold the mat or make it smaller until its completely gone.

I really don't quite understand the 101 things with a box...if she just clicking and treating any behavior? Some behaviors but not others? New behaviors?

If my dog touches the box with his paw and I click - he's going to go and touch the box with his paw again, do I click??...isn't he just going to keep repeating that behavior? If I stop clicking for touching with the paw...isn't he going to get frustrated?

Off to read some stuff...

Mat work sound easier...my dog is pretty entuisiatic about going to his cushion. He'll run to and drop on his mat on verbal cue pretty reliably.

[kyliegirl]

heres the instructions on how to do 101 things to do with a box

http://www.clickertraining.com/node/167

i would really suggest you buy karen pryors books :D

[Luke W]

heres the instructions on how to do 101 things to do with a box

http://www.clickertraining.com/node/167

i would really suggest you buy karen pryors books :D

Thanks for the link

- I've read "Getting Started: Clicker Training for Dogs (Getting Started)" and I'm part way through "Don't shot the dog"

[dogdude]

The way I shape it is by heeling extremely slowly, and just before stalling point, command stand (without hand signals at first) and mark and release to food target. I find that using lures for this exercise causes movement problems and lack of concentration due to signtracking.

If the dog starts to sit, I give a no reward signal, then keep going (very slowly).

ETA: Its a Balabanov method. My pup responded fantastically!

Edited July 9, 2008 by dogdude

[ruthless]

There's some info here that might help

http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?show...=ruthless+stand

[Luke W]

heres the instructions on how to do 101 things to do with a box

http://www.clickertraining.com/node/167

i would really suggest you buy karen pryors books

I tried the box game.

It seems he finds chewing on the box the most rewarding thing in the world!!

Even more rewarding than fresh diced steak (usually the highest level of reward for him)...

He got stuck chewing and dismembering the box - he stopped responding to the clicks and was more interested in chewing the box than the steak.

I could really distract him from the box (by making the treat hit the ground with a lound 'squish' next to him) and get him to take his reward but he went straight back to chewing the box. If I stopped clicking for chewing the box, he didn't care. He was happy to keep chewing the box and not get any rewards.

Am I going to have to starve him before playing the box game?

Arghhh.

Edited July 10, 2008 by Luke W

[Luke W]

I tried the box game again - he hasn't eaten much since breakfast.

All he wants to do is chew the box. He ignores the clicks.

I gave up before I slit my wrists.

[Kavik]

What about a piece of paper on the ground, and shape a foot target on the paper (and hence a stand) - I taught this to Zoe for fun for how they get dogs to go to a mark for TV work.

Remember to click and reward any interest in the paper at the start.

[WalandLibby]

If you stroke him around the hips, back, while focussed on the target does he settle? I made use of this with my guy who despite not being a puppy is very wiggly. I used a target to get him into position, gently stroked his back and hips until he settled (if he'd got too settled, I'd just brought him slightly forward again with the target or if he'd flopped completely just have started again), when he was still moved the stroking hand away just slightly and c/t after just a second. Once this was happening well, the wriggly behaviour reduced and I had something that I could reward when I targeted him into the position.

Targeting over a low barrier can be useful - that way the pup is leaning forward to try to contact the target, but the barrier prevents them actually mouthing it. Leaning forward will also tend to reduce the amount of backend movement.

I'm trying to remember something I saw in a Mary Ray vid a while ago where she lured (with a food bowl??) the dog from sit to stand and then a few steps backwards. This developed the basis of a lovely competition stand. Maybe someone with it fresher in their memory (or who has used it) can describe it.

[Jigsaw]

Hey Hey I have a dog that loves nothing more than ripping up paper and boxes. Nothing is safe with her!! I too tried some work using a phone book and she enjoyed ripping the covers off it. I have now moved to using plastic boxes if I want to get her do some work. Hopefully when she's a bit older I might be able to go back to cardboard boxes.

One thing that I don't think has been mentioned yet is the use of a release cue such as "free" or OK. You could use this by clicking, saying free and then rewarding - might stop some of the wriggles (instead of click, reward, free). You can also then extend the period of time from almost immediate release and increase by small increments as pup gets the idea of things. You can introduce the release cue into sit, drop etc as well.

ETA: you can use your hand to hold the stand as has been mentioned by others to help maintain the stand and then use the release cue.

Edited July 11, 2008 by Jigsaw

[Luke W]

Hey Hey I have a dog that loves nothing more than ripping up paper and boxes. Nothing is safe with her!! I too tried some work using a phone book and she enjoyed ripping the covers off it. I have now moved to using plastic boxes if I want to get her do some work. Hopefully when she's a bit older I might be able to go back to cardboard boxes.

One thing that I don't think has been mentioned yet is the use of a release cue such as "free" or OK. You could use this by clicking, saying free and then rewarding - might stop some of the wriggles (instead of click, reward, free). You can also then extend the period of time from almost immediate release and increase by small increments as pup gets the idea of things. You can introduce the release cue into sit, drop etc as well.

ETA: you can use your hand to hold the stand as has been mentioned by others to help maintain the stand and then use the release cue.

I think we are having a rest from training for a day or two.

One thing that continues to confuse me is the use (or not) of a release word.

For some trainers, the click is the release. For others, they have a specific release word. With a release word, what's the point of the stay command...?

At the moment, for me, 'click is release' - pretty much. Except when it's not.

[Jigsaw]

The use of a release word means you don't necessarily need to use the command stay. The dog should stay in a sit or whatever until you say free. Generally means you can command say sit, dog sits, mark with click or verbal and then use release when you judge that dog has sustained the sit for long enough ideally before it breaks position, then reward. Be careful you don't confuse your dog by using the click as the release command, if you want a sustained stand you will have to increase the length of time before you click once your dog has obeyed the command and there's the possible problem as if the dog is being clicked for doing a behaviour and then treated but now you wait before clicking the dog may become confused as to whether it is offering the desired behaviour. At least that's how I'm thinking it through. I'm happy if someone can clarify it for me - using the click as a mark and a release??

[Luke W]

Another conseration is that we need to be very clear in our minds exactly what 'sit' means.

Does it mean put the bum on the floor for no particular length of time? In which case, the click should come as soon as the bum hits the floor - with a reward to follow immediately (well, taking into consideration the notion of delayed reward)...

If sit means put the bum on the floor and remain there until released...then we should click and reward periodically during the sit...

"Sit"...pause...click/treat...pause, click/treat...pause, click/treat...release

Or should we:

"Sit".....................................pause.............

..........graduaully shape longer pauses................."click quickly followed by 'free command'/treat" - then we can eventually remove the click....

Confusing hey...

There doesn't seem to be a single accepted method.

[Luke W]

PS - A Delta trainer I've been working with says that the click signifies 'job done' and hence is also the release.

Karen Pryor talks about the click being used not solely as 'job done' but also as 'getting there' in some circumstances.

Where's the rule book!!!

Edited July 11, 2008 by Luke W

[dogdude]

Clicker should only be used as a marker. That is your main problem. You are not letting the dog know what you want. It hasn't got time to understand. You are only letting your dog think about the reward.....not how to work for it.

Lose the clicker and mark with yes. Use words to let the dog know itsdoing well when standing still in the stand by saying a slow, quiet drawn out "goooood", then release to reward.

[Kavik]

You need to decide what they mean for you or the dog has no chance of figuring it out! :rolleyes:

I use click = release when I use a clicker. I use a release command when I am not using a clicker or marker word. I would build up the pause before the click (longer sit or whatever) or introduce a keep going command (like dogdude I use a drawn out goood).

Using a release command means you don't have to use a stay command, dog should stay til you release. Though I think in ob ring you have to use stay, but that doesn't mean you can' use release command.

Edit: Personally I wouldn't use a clicker to teach stand. Clickers are great for things where you want the dog to be interactive and think, I don't find them so good for calm exercises and I haven't seen the point for simple things like sit, stand, drop. They want to be active to get that click, so it is great for teaching them to touch, paw, push etc, but it also means that they don't want to stay still. I would simply lure and hold the dog in place/pat calmly etc and release when the dog is standing.

Edited July 11, 2008 by Kavik

[Luke W]

Clicker should only be used as a marker. That is your main problem. You are not letting the dog know what you want. It hasn't got time to understand. You are only letting your dog think about the reward.....not how to work for it.

Lose the clicker and mark with yes. Use words to let the dog know itsdoing well when standing still in the stand by saying a slow, quiet drawn out "goooood", then release to reward.

How would simply changing from a clicker to a word make any difference?

I can't use a drawn out 'gooood' because he NEVER stands still.

Edited July 11, 2008 by Luke W

[Jigsaw]

If sit means put the bum on the floor and remain there until released...then we should click and reward periodically during the sit...

"Sit"...pause...click/treat...pause, click/treat...pause, click/treat...release

Or should we:

"Sit".....................................pause.............

..........graduaully shape longer pauses................."click quickly followed by 'free command'/treat" - then we can eventually remove the click....

Confusing hey...

There doesn't seem to be a single accepted method.

To teach my dog sit etc I used the "sit", mark (I use a verbal marker), reward, mark, reward, mark, reward, release to help with duration. The dog learnt as long as she remained in position she would be rewarded, then I used a release command. Now I say "sit" and mark, release and reward, with as long a pause as I want between mark and release (watching carefully so I catch her before she breaks), this has established a pretty reliable sit, drop etc, although we are still working on distractions and distance (she's only 6 months). I mean most mistakes she makes are mine because sometimes I do forget the release command and go straight to reward so sometimes get myself in trouble that way!

I guess we all have different methods, different methods for different dogs too! As long as you are consistent with what you do with your dog it shouldn't make any difference what single method you use. Just as long as you are making it clear to the dog what you want it to do.

You can still use a verbal encourager like good, or good dog, whatever you want when using a clicker - don't see why not. Some dogs prefer the voice to the clicker and vice versa, some dogs are trained to both verbal mark and clicker.

[dogdude]

How would simply changing from a clicker to a word make any difference?

I can't use a drawn out 'gooood' because he NEVER stands still.

This post has been edited by Luke W: 11th Jul 2008 - 04:57 PM

The important point hasn't got a lot to do with the benefits of a marker word over a clicker for static exercises, more the point of giving the dog time to work out what you want from him, then helping out when needed.

How can you click (your release) if he never stands still? Also, if you do capture a stand with a click, you are teaching him to immediately break the stand to gain a reward. This method will never work.

I think a "no reward marker" is just as usefull as a positive one in this exercise. It will help explain each part of the exercise to the dog clearly, including when he is allowed to accept his reward.

Each no reward signal is followed by trying again, until you are able to capture a good quiet stand. You will find it a lot easier to get a bit of calm behavior by ditching the clicker and using your voice (because of past learnt behaviors), and also by getting the food off your body by teaching him to run to a reward target. You will find your dog will spend more time tuned into you, and spend less time looking for the food on "you".