Luke W Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 Hoping for some ideas... I'm really struggling to get a good 'stand'. Even a pretty bad stand eludes me. I use clicker training and I've tried a couple of methods. I've working on this for weeks and I'm at my wits end... The first method I used was luring from a sit...treat on his nose, move it forward, he stands, I click.. - Problems...at first he was taking a couple of steps forward...my fault, pulling the lure to far forward. Now I stop my hand, no steps forward but he mouths the lure terribly, all the while his back end is swinging left and right. The second I open my hand and let him have the treat he sits back down. His backend never settles. I initially clicked as soon as he stood, then later tried to delay the click until he wasn't moving quite as much. I can't seem to shape him to stand still. He desperately mouths my hand and swings his back half all over the place. The second method I used was the 'gentle lift under the back leg' - problems...he sits as soon as I remove my hand and his back end swings all over the place I (mistakenly) added a cue - so know he thinks the word 'stand' means: stand up, swing bum around to left, sit, stand up, swing bum around to right, sit, whine, bark, wriggle, sit, whine, bark, swing bum left and right, wiggle bum on floor, whine bark.... I've tried backing him into a corner to prevent movement but he continues to shuffle around.... Help....Any ideas? We are both getting very frustrated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staff'n'Toller Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 Have you taught a hand target? I teach sit to stand by getting them to stand up forward and target my hand, click, reward, very quick release. Mel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyliegirl Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 (edited) first the point of using a lure is that they follow it, not try to eat it, your supposed to make your hand or stick the target/lure and phase out the treat on the lure. You NEVER feed them the treat they are being lured with and you should never use a treat to lure after they get the idea what your hand/stick does. Always make the treat you give which isnt the lure better than the lure. Phase out the treat in the hand, they arent supposed to be following the treat in your hand, theyre supposed to be following your hand. Make your hand the target and teach a trick called "touch" so they nose your hand, this helps to teach tricks like stand also. second I would suggest 101 tricks with a box, so your pup gets the idea that simple random things can be reinforced and therefore it will encourage it to think more and figure out puzzles easier so it gets the idea that when you go to teaching things like stand (an everyday thing for a dog) they realise that "hey, when i stop moving and do this thing i do all the time they reward me!". Dont just reward a stand when your trying to teach it, clicker training is like taking photos, you click when you get the right action, so if your puppy suddenly stands still for a second or two you click and treat, let it run around then stop and stand still, click and treat, when they sit then stand, click and treat.. After they get the idea teach a hand signal to the stand, and only treat when they stand on the hand signal. You also should never give a cue until the pup knows EXACTLY what it is they are doing, give a hand signal and then shape the trick until they do it exactly how you want it, then give it a cue. A cue shouldnt be given until the action is exactly what your training for, otherwise it will confuse the dog later. Edited July 9, 2008 by kyliegirl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jen Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 hi Luke, I had the same problem with one of my kelpies. One day I was so frustrated that I took off my jumper and put it under his belly to make a sling. I held him in place while I stuffed him with heaps of treats and praise. It worked. Wasnt long and we had a really good stand. He couldnt do anything else but stand because I was able to keep him in place. Maybe its not the best way to teach stand but when you have tried everything else, I fail to see how this can hurt to give it a go. JD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prodigybxr Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 Hoping for some ideas...I'm really struggling to get a good 'stand'. Even a pretty bad stand eludes me. I use clicker training and I've tried a couple of methods. I've working on this for weeks and I'm at my wits end... The first method I used was luring from a sit...treat on his nose, move it forward, he stands, I click.. - Problems...at first he was taking a couple of steps forward...my fault, pulling the lure to far forward. Now I stop my hand, no steps forward but he mouths the lure terribly, all the while his back end is swinging left and right. The second I open my hand and let him have the treat he sits back down. His backend never settles. I initially clicked as soon as he stood, then later tried to delay the click until he wasn't moving quite as much. I can't seem to shape him to stand still. He desperately mouths my hand and swings his back half all over the place. The second method I used was the 'gentle lift under the back leg' - problems...he sits as soon as I remove my hand and his back end swings all over the place I (mistakenly) added a cue - so know he thinks the word 'stand' means: stand up, swing bum around to left, sit, stand up, swing bum around to right, sit, whine, bark, wriggle, sit, whine, bark, swing bum left and right, wiggle bum on floor, whine bark.... I've tried backing him into a corner to prevent movement but he continues to shuffle around.... Help....Any ideas? We are both getting very frustrated. Most dogs get sit drummed into them, it's any wonder they have trouble with the stand! You could loop a very light nylon lead under his belly/groin- and offer resistance via that. So you would be holding both ends of the lead in one hand above him like shopping bag straps- and luring/marking with the other. Gradually offer less resistance as he gets more solid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 He is only a pup? Thinking he is pretty young still. I don't mind a couple of steps into the walk when they are first learning. The pup will not stay up in the stand for very long, so get that release word in super fast. You have to build it up second by second. So I would be clicking, rewarding & releasing in about 1 sec to start with! Sounds like you are asking for too much too soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 Have you tried the food a little bit away from him and a bit higher when you lure from sit, so he can't try to nibble it? Like they do for baiting show dogs. I taught stand at same time as sit to avoid the problem of sitting instead of standing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tess32 Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 Sorry haven't read it all - have you tried capturing as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke W Posted July 9, 2008 Author Share Posted July 9, 2008 first the point of using a lure is that they follow it, not try to eat it, your supposed to make your hand or stick the target/lure and phase out the treat on the lure. You NEVER feed them the treat they are being lured with and you should never use a treat to lure after they get the idea what your hand/stick does. Always make the treat you give which isnt the lure better than the lure. Phase out the treat in the hand, they arent supposed to be following the treat in your hand, theyre supposed to be following your hand. Make your hand the target and teach a trick called "touch" so they nose your hand, this helps to teach tricks like stand also.second I would suggest 101 tricks with a box, so your pup gets the idea that simple random things can be reinforced and therefore it will encourage it to think more and figure out puzzles easier so it gets the idea that when you go to teaching things like stand (an everyday thing for a dog) they realise that "hey, when i stop moving and do this thing i do all the time they reward me!". Dont just reward a stand when your trying to teach it, clicker training is like taking photos, you click when you get the right action, so if your puppy suddenly stands still for a second or two you click and treat, let it run around then stop and stand still, click and treat, when they sit then stand, click and treat.. After they get the idea teach a hand signal to the stand, and only treat when they stand on the hand signal. You also should never give a cue until the pup knows EXACTLY what it is they are doing, give a hand signal and then shape the trick until they do it exactly how you want it, then give it a cue. A cue shouldnt be given until the action is exactly what your training for, otherwise it will confuse the dog later. You make it sound so easy :D Re luring into the stand...if I lure him into the stand and click as soon as he stands - what do I do with the hand that holds the lure...if I move it away he follows it by walking or jumping. If I leave it there he mouths it. OK - maybe if I very quickly remov ethe lure hand and treat very quickly with the other hand...that might work. Your comments on 'don't just reward a stand'...that's sounds like 'shaping' rather than 'luring' - I understand what you are getting at - when I was trying to shape the action, I was clicking and treating bum coming off the floor for a fraction of a second, standing up and shuffling left, etc...I can't seem to shape it further into 'stand still for chrissakes!' He knows 'touch hand' and 'nose stick'...I'm not sure how I'd transition from using 'touch hand' to 'stand'....hmm Maybe I do... (I didn't want to link the command 'touch' into the stand action...he knows the verbal command 'touch' and I've started teaching him without the verbal command 'touch' he doesn't touch my palm. Same with stick targetting. I'd intending to have a verbal for 'touch stick with nose', a verbal for 'touch stick with right paw', 'touch stick with left paw', etc...in the absense of a verbal he was to leave the stick alone.) Need to have a long think... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke W Posted July 9, 2008 Author Share Posted July 9, 2008 Most dogs get sit drummed into them, it's any wonder they have trouble with the stand! You could loop a very light nylon lead under his belly/groin- and offer resistance via that. So you would be holding both ends of the lead in one hand above him like shopping bag straps- and luring/marking with the other. Gradually offer less resistance as he gets more solid. Thats an idea! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 Generally with targetting - one stimulus, one response. So you pick if you want nose or paw touch for the target, otherwise you might confuse the dog. With Diesel, left hand palm up he will give his paw, right hand facing him he will target with his nose, target stick target with his nose. Zoe will do a foot target on a piece of paper, nose target to hand, target stick and head inside a bucket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke W Posted July 9, 2008 Author Share Posted July 9, 2008 Sorry haven't read it all - have you tried capturing as well? Not really...I really haven't done much capturing. I'm not quite sure how the 'capturing' fits in with existing behaviours and how to go about it. I think he'd get frustrated if I clicked him for a random stand...then didn't reward until he stood again, he'd start offering sits and downs, and barks, and going to his mat etc, etc....but no stands. Can you tell I'm inexperienced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke W Posted July 9, 2008 Author Share Posted July 9, 2008 Generally with targetting - one stimulus, one response. So you pick if you want nose or paw touch for the target, otherwise you might confuse the dog. With Diesel, left hand palm up he will give his paw, right hand facing him he will target with his nose, target stick target with his nose. Zoe will do a foot target on a piece of paper, nose target to hand, target stick and head inside a bucket. I got my targetting intentions mixed up...touch stick is always with nose. "Right paw" is touch what the stick touched with right paw, same for "left paw". That's the plan anyway. I have only taught 'touch stick with nose' and 'touch palm with nose (which ever palm is offered)' so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staff'n'Toller Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 If you have been getting nose targetting without a verbal cue that is great, all you need to do is start asking for hand touches with your visual cue (whether that is your hand or the stick doesn't matter, but make it the same one each time). You need to practice this enough times that he is getting it and remembering that muscle memory of standing, with the new cue word. Once you have a new cue word working well, you fade the hand target so he no longer needs to actually touch the target but understands the cue means to stand up, and your faded hand target becomes a hand signal for stand. Free shaping is extremely frustrating for dogs and if you've never played the shaping game with another human you'll never understand just how hard it is. There is nothing wrong with luring a stand and holding your pup with a flat hand under the belly for a few seconds as he gets his reward. The important thing is that you use a release word that means exercise finished. I think a release is crucial to dogs actually 'getting' the stand position. Not everything with pups needs to be hands off. :D Mel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke W Posted July 9, 2008 Author Share Posted July 9, 2008 He is only a pup? Thinking he is pretty young still. I don't mind a couple of steps into the walk when they are first learning. The pup will not stay up in the stand for very long, so get that release word in super fast. You have to build it up second by second. So I would be clicking, rewarding & releasing in about 1 sec to start with! Sounds like you are asking for too much too soon. I can't even get him to stand for 1 sec. I can't progress past the 'stand, shuffle left right, sit' (in the space of less than one sec). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whatevah Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 We had a lot of problems with Tia doing stand. When she first arrived every time I used the clicker, whenever she heard it she would sit to take a treat. Not sure what the breeder had taught her. What I found helped us, was whilst heeling you stop for a fraction of a second, say stand, then heel off very quickly before they get a chance to sit. This worked really well. Then gradually you lengthen the stand time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke W Posted July 9, 2008 Author Share Posted July 9, 2008 If you have been getting nose targetting without a verbal cue that is great, all you need to do is start asking for hand touches with your visual cue (whether that is your hand or the stick doesn't matter, but make it the same one each time).You need to practice this enough times that he is getting it and remembering that muscle memory of standing, with the new cue word. Once you have a new cue word working well, you fade the hand target so he no longer needs to actually touch the target but understands the cue means to stand up, and your faded hand target becomes a hand signal for stand. :D Perhaps unfortunately, after teaching the nose/hand target, I added the cue "touch", then I started to teach that he should only touch WITH the verbal cue "touch". So now he will (mostly) only target with the command 'touch'. I guess I could try: 1. offer palm. 2. Verbal "stand"... 3. Pause... 4. Verbal "touch" to lure the stand ...eventually he'll anticipate the 'touch' command as soon as he hears 'stand' at which time I could fade the 'touch' command. Then I'm stuck with a hand signal that's identical to 'touch'...arghhh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke W Posted July 9, 2008 Author Share Posted July 9, 2008 We had a lot of problems with Tia doing stand. When she first arrived every time I used the clicker, whenever she heard it she would sit to take a treat. Not sure what the breeder had taught her.What I found helped us, was whilst heeling you stop for a fraction of a second, say stand, then heel off very quickly before they get a chance to sit. This worked really well. Then gradually you lengthen the stand time. Mine does this too. He has a super sit! He sits for everything! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 I'd go back to target without command, shouldn't be too hard to reestablish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyliegirl Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 I would really suggest 101 things to do with a box if your having problems shaping, as it encourages the dog to offer you things and helps things to be shaped faster. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXKUAB33KYg Another option is to use a mat and stop your dog when it reaches the mat and click and treat, making it a marker to the dog to help it learn. You can use the mat to train alot of other things too, like walk along drops and sits. Gradually you could fold the mat or make it smaller until its completely gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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