E Collar Use

[rugerfly]

The working level as it is called is not ment to be a correction, its a signal for ok dog, a command is a comin and many other ranges of communicating something to the dog.

Hope that helps. ;)

yeah, thanks

But how come a word/whistle etc wouldn't work if you want to get the dogs attention.....not trying to be inflammatory....just trying to educate myself.....an e-collar is something I would not use, but I feel it is important for my own interest to understan how other methods are intended to work, whether I agree with them or not.

I guess if that worked when they are in the field under distraction and out of sight, i'd do it

[Erny]

But how come a word/whistle etc wouldn't work if you want to get the dogs attention.....not trying to be inflammatory....just trying to educate myself.....an e-collar is something I would not use, but I feel it is important for my own interest to understand how other methods are intended to work, whether I agree with them or not.

Willow - the point behind training with an e-collar at working level stim with R- methodology is that the dog learns via foundation training that it has the control to turn off the annoying stim by compliance to command. It increases compliance reliability and with that affords the dog more opportunity for off-lead freedom. Many and most dogs will respond to the word/whistle in certain circumstances, but often this breaks down when the dog perceives doing something else is more worthwhile (read : fun; interesting) for him/her. And sometimes it is impossible for the handler to offer anything more "fun; interesting" when they're up against quirky distractions that randomly occur in the environment.

It is good that you are enquiring - it is IMO indicative of an open-mind.

Edited July 8, 2008 by Erny

[corvus]

Okay, but even with a very prey driven dog you can find rewards to offer them that are pretty appropriate to the moment. I know people who have taught their very prey driven dogs to turn around for a hard game of tug rather than hare off after some fleeing prey animal. Even my mother's Vallhund, who once tore a hole in the garage wall trying to get at a possum, will leave it and come to you if he thinks you're going to help him get the possum. And he is SMART. As in, I didn't think dogs were capable of that kind of thing smart. And independent, as in you're boring, screw your treats, I'm going hunting on my own independent. If you ever went too far with the punishments with that little guy you'd lose him for good.

[rugerfly]

Those are very valid points corvus, but I want reliability no matter what. I cant carry around treats and toys with me all the time. It may work once, but if Fly sees a cat across the road when she is off leash, I take no chances in delay, or her particular level of interest at the time.

I want both my dogs t be able to run together again, rather than run OFF in a pack drive...

[Jeff Jones]

Great point Rugerfly. Some dogs need to know there is a direct consequence for there actions.

[Akitaowner]

Okay, but even with a very prey driven dog you can find rewards to offer them that are pretty appropriate to the moment. I know people who have taught their very prey driven dogs to turn around for a hard game of tug rather than hare off after some fleeing prey animal. Even my mother's Vallhund, who once tore a hole in the garage wall trying to get at a possum, will leave it and come to you if he thinks you're going to help him get the possum. And he is SMART. As in, I didn't think dogs were capable of that kind of thing smart. And independent, as in you're boring, screw your treats, I'm going hunting on my own independent. If you ever went too far with the punishments with that little guy you'd lose him for good.

Corvus - what you are describing is a type of drive training - however have you ever met a dog with little or no usable prey drive?? or one that has actually succedded in chasing the rabbit/bird etc and caught it for the fun - i think you will find they are a little more difficult to get 100% compliance

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: I have been emailing Laeral & its all under control. Its good to keep an open mind & although level 20 sounds high, this is a low to medium power collar with 127 levels, the difference between each level is less than 1% so its minimal. I can not feel anything under level 35 on this model.

My method of training works on the lowest level that the dog can just percieve which is why we use this type of collar.

JJ: What type of e-collar are you using?

K9: Its a Dogtra 280NCP, great unit

W: can I just ask a question? (fr anyone who uses these collars, not just the OP) When you are finding what you refer to as the "working level", do you not have to zap the dog for doing nothing "wrong" in order to find what setting the dog reacts to? so you have to fiddle around for different levels of reaction, in the meantime the dog is being zapped for nothing...

K9: In theory yes, but in practice no. The working level is about adjusting the collar level from the lowest level to the point in which the dog can just feel it, its not a correctional type level.

W: If so, would you not find that once you find the "working level" you may have inadvertantly zapped your dog for looking at the sky, or the kids, or the front door (etc etc) and therefore also inadvertantly set yourself up for some future behaviour issues due to the dog being punished for something completely unrelated to the issue you are concerned with?

K9: If the level was set on very high then all this is theoretically possible, but as the level is well below anything that could be deemed painful, there is no risk.

Used at this level the collar becomes a "behavioural interuptor" that can be shaped according to certain conditions.

W: But how come a word/whistle etc wouldn't work if you want to get the dogs attention.....not trying to be inflammatory....just trying to educate myself.....an e-collar is something I would not use, but I feel it is important for my own interest to understan how other methods are intended to work, whether I agree with them or not.

K9: Good question: In some states of high arousal or drive, the dogs ears are quite inefficient, also referred to as "selective deafness". Whistles in those cases are not of much use.

C: Okay, but even with a very prey driven dog you can find rewards to offer them that are pretty appropriate to the moment. I know people who have taught their very prey driven dogs to turn around for a hard game of tug rather than hare off after some fleeing prey animal.

K9: This is largely dependant on many variables. Training in drive is my preferred method of training, but you must have a dog with drive or it has no real value.

In the case you mentioned above, many dogs learn how to satisfy their drive before the trainer shows up with a tug (or similar prey item). This means that its well & good to play tug but when the game of tug starts to cost more than chasing the "x", reliability may go out the window.

Something may need to be done to "de value" the free prey items which in turn can increase the value of your prey item, (tug).

C: Even my mother's Vallhund, who once tore a hole in the garage wall trying to get at a possum, will leave it and come to you if he thinks you're going to help him get the possum. And he is SMART. As in, I didn't think dogs were capable of that kind of thing smart. And independent, as in you're boring, screw your treats, I'm going hunting on my own independent. If you ever went too far with the punishments with that little guy you'd lose him for good.

K9: if you go too far with punishments with any dog you lose them...

[corvus]

Corvus - what you are describing is a type of drive training - however have you ever met a dog with little or no usable prey drive?? or one that has actually succedded in chasing the rabbit/bird etc and caught it for the fun - i think you will find they are a little more difficult to get 100% compliance

Well, Pyry at least has killed animals. He's basically the Grimm Reaper for Blue-tongues and anything of a similar size is fair game. He's definitely been harder to control since he's made a few kills. But just recently when he had a little bluey I called him calmly and he at least let me approach him and take the lizard off him. It was still alive, just, and I think it survived. Anyway, the point is, he's not even my dog, but if you set up a history of not being the enemy in these situations, then you can still do pretty well in a tight place with little lives on the line. I guess what I'm trying to say is that from my perspective at least, it's better to be your dog's friend when they're revved up and ready to kill than to stand back and introduce an environmental punishment. I wouldn't trust Pyry to heed anyone every time he felt a kill coming on, but then, I kind of like that about Pyry. It's a lot of fun to approach these problems from the perspective of "how can I get in on the fun" rather than "how can I stop the fun". It's a delicious challenge to find ways to be the one your dog actually turns to when they're trying to catch something. Of course, Pyry isn't very fast and if he could catch more things on his own it might be a different matter. And you have to be careful about tricking him because he catches on very fast when he's been tricked and it doesn't work anymore. But then, that's part of the fun as well. And here I am picking breeds with low drive for the sake of the bunnies that have to share the house with the dogs.

Incidentally, I've heard of e-collars being used to increase drive. I think the idea was to use it on a setting too low to be a punishment, but high enough to act as a stimulant. Can't say I really bought the idea, though. I've also heard of them being used as a reward. I didn't quite understand it, but I think the dogs were conditioned to like the buzz and were buzzed when they were on the right trail. They were hunting dogs.

I haven't met a dog yet that has not much drive and still somehow needs a punishment for... for what? My corgi has next to no drive and she's dead easy to train. We don't have any troubles to start with because she's not so easily seized by movement and such. Until I taught her to chase kangaroos. Don't ask me what was going through my head when I started doing that, but teaching her to chase roos was a lot easier than teaching her NOT to chase roos. But I guess she's proof that drive can be brought out even in non-drivey dogs. She doesn't ever give the wild hare running through my house a second glance, but kangaroos are for chasing. As for dogs that learnt to satisfy their own prey drive, I reckon 90% of training at least is just establishing habits. I've broken a lot of habits in my hare based on instinctive behaviours. It's not so hard. Of course, I did have the trusty tobasco and bitter spray when it was a habit set in stone and I was having trouble shifting it, so I guess an e-collar is the doggy equivalent of my tobasco/bitter spray. And yeah, his latest habit of peeing all over the cage instead of in his litter tray is a doozy and doing my head in. And my nose. And probably the kitchen floor because I don't think his cage is as waterproof as I'd like it to be. In the end, I usually leave habits if they're not potentially dangerous and/or I don't have a kind way to tackle them.

Oh hey, another thought about drive. I've been encouraging drive in my little lappie puppy, which is a bit of a joke. He likes tug, but doesn't try very hard. He likes chasing frisbees and balls, but only if I've managed to rev him up a fair bit first and it's a bit hit and miss, but we've got this puppet toy that's a big padded boxing glove sort of thing with a big red mouth and a squeaker and ears and little legs dangling off. He goes absolutely nuts over that toy. It gets him into a frenzy and he will wear himself out wrestling with it, tugging on it, chasing it as I spin in circles, and fiercely subduing it. I haven't found anything yet that gets close to being as exciting as that puppet toy. And somehow it makes him more careful of accidentally biting me instead of the puppet. I've been trying to figure out what it is about this puppet that hits home. All the dogs in the dog park keep trying to steal it, too. It's extremely popular. Haven't tried it with the corgi, but she was brought up to believe teeth didn't belong anywhere near someone's hand. Don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing.

[Just Midol]

How come every time e-collars or prongs are brought up people like you come in voicing your disapproval?

You're speaking to people who ARE using them. They're not going to change their minds at all so why do you bother?

[corvus]

I'm not trying to change anyone's mind. I ain't that stupid. I'm just offering discussion. What would be the point of a forum if people didn't voice their disapproval of something with clear reasons why? I've been very fair to a device that will never sit well with me thank you very much. Anyway, it's not you that I'm talking to. It's people who don't know about them or haven't used them. Both sides should be presented to any training tool. Think I haven't had my share of being accused of being too soft, using methods that don't work, have negatives I supposedly pretended didn't exist, and teaching my dog to wring me for every treat at my disposal? And that's just the start of it. There are always differing opinions. It wouldn't be a very interesting forum if those opinions weren't aired.

[Just Midol]

But you're not offering anything that we haven't heard a hundred times already.

An opinion without fact behind it is useless. If you want to convince someone who has not used one to never use one then back up your opinions with scientific proof that these cause harm to dogs. Though we've had people attempt this, and their attempts were very, very unsuccessful.

Edited July 9, 2008 by Lord Midol

[Kavik]

The people training under K9 are not using the ecollar as a punisher - it is not like your tabasco/bitter spray. It is being used as a precursor to a command, letting them know a command is coming, and they learn that they can turn the collar stim off by complying with the command. So they use a low level stim at the working level (level the dog can just perceive it). So it is being used as negative reinforcement (-R), where the stim is removed when command is obeyed, not positive punishment (+P) when they do something wrong. It is being used to teach a command, not stop a behaviour.

Edit: I don't use an ecollar on my dogs, but I like to learn and see how all types of equipment are used, regardless of whether I choose to use it or not.

Edited July 9, 2008 by Kavik

[corvus]

Yeah, thanks everyone, I get it. And I'm not trying to prove anything. People were responding to my discussion so I kept on with it. If you don't want to discuss then that's fine by me, don't get involved. I don't believe e-collars harm dogs, for the record, but I'm bowing out seeing as my point of view is apparently boring and annoying. And I promise I'll never ever bring it up again, even should a newbie come along and ask.

[Just Midol]

Meh, sorry, was probably a bit harsh earlier.

Discussion is always good.

[rugerfly]

No problem here corvus, I like any type of intelligent discussion I guess what I want out of my e collar is a very long distance remote controlled lead without getting tangled up in it....

Just like yesterday when I tried to walk ruger in the flexi leash Ummmm it didnt work

[MonElite]

Both sides should be presented to any training tool.

Couldnt agree more. Have you used the collar yourself to be able to present us with the view? Becouse if you didnt use the collar (in the manner Kavik explained) I wouldnt see much validity in your presentation of facts, unless you can of course reffer them to someone that has actually used the collar and had the same opinion as you do.

[Erny]

Actually, I don't think it is necessary to have USED a tool to be able to ponder its good (or bad, depending on your view) uses, and to be able to join in on discussion about it. In fact, I'd prefer that, as to use a tool WITHOUT having discussed and perhaps clarified queries could prove detrimental and is often when tools (read : various training equipment types) are used incorrectly and from which false opinions are formed.

It's not even necessarily wrong, having discussed at length the correct use of a tool, the way it works etc., to form an initial opinion as to whether one might be comfortable (or not) in proceeding to use it.

The only thing (IMO) that is wrong is to decry a tool and impose this opinion to all and sundry (especially in the face of so much evidence which supports its beneficial use), unless broad experience with that tool dictates this should be so.

From what I read, I don't think that is what Corvus is doing.

Edited July 9, 2008 by Erny

[Steve K9Pro]

C: Well, Pyry at least has killed animals. He's basically the Grimm Reaper for Blue-tongues and anything of a similar size is fair game. He's definitely been harder to control since he's made a few kills. But just recently when he had a little bluey I called him calmly and he at least let me approach him and take the lizard off him.

K9: The reliability in this situation will largely depend on the dogs temperament eg drives & nerves & what the dog call satisfaction.

Once he had caught the lizard the prey had stopped movin hence held a lesser value in terms of distraction. This is just one possibility.

C: Anyway, the point is, he's not even my dog

K9: which in many cases can be an advantage.

C: but if you set up a history of not being the enemy in these situations, then you can still do pretty well in a tight place with little lives on the line. I guess what I'm trying to say is that from my perspective at least, it's better to be your dog's friend when they're revved up and ready to kill than to stand back and introduce an environmental punishment.

K9: there are two issues (at least) with this last statement.

1. How are you the dogs friend if you ended up taking the prey away? That makes you part of the problem, not the solution. You ended the drive process rather than made it continue.

2. If your not there & the dog has access to a little life, what chance is there that the dog will allow that life to continue? None?

C: I wouldn't trust Pyry to heed anyone every time he felt a kill coming on, but then, I kind of like that about Pyry.

K9: You might not be aware of this but it also makes him a dangerous dog, according to NSW law.

I am not one who doesnt understand that animals will hunt prey, but to the dog there is little difference between a lizard to a rabbit to a cat to a child.

There needs to be some manner of control.

C: It's a lot of fun to approach these problems from the perspective of "how can I get in on the fun" rather than "how can I stop the fun". It's a delicious challenge to find ways to be the one your dog actually turns to when they're trying to catch something. Of course, Pyry isn't very fast and if he could catch more things on his own it might be a different matter. And you have to be careful about tricking him because he catches on very fast when he's been tricked and it doesn't work anymore. But then, that's part of the fun as well. And here I am picking breeds with low drive for the sake of the bunnies that have to share the house with the dogs.

K9: Fun is very situational though, I am sure the lizards arent cheering about it... lol.

C: Incidentally, I've heard of e-collars being used to increase drive. I think the idea was to use it on a setting too low to be a punishment, but high enough to act as a stimulant. Can't say I really bought the idea, though. I've also heard of them being used as a reward. I didn't quite understand it, but I think the dogs were conditioned to like the buzz and were buzzed when they were on the right trail. They were hunting dogs.

K9: They can be used in many ways, to achieve various results. Used correctly, there is no better training tool.

C: I haven't met a dog yet that has not much drive and still somehow needs a punishment for... for what? My corgi has next to no drive and she's dead easy to train. We don't have any troubles to start with because she's not so easily seized by movement and such. Until I taught her to chase kangaroos. Don't ask me what was going through my head when I started doing that, but teaching her to chase roos was a lot easier than teaching her NOT to chase roos. But I guess she's proof that drive can be brought out even in non-drivey dogs. She doesn't ever give the wild hare running through my house a second glance, but kangaroos are for chasing. As for dogs that learnt to satisfy their own prey drive, I reckon 90% of training at least is just establishing habits. I've broken a lot of habits in my hare based on instinctive behaviours. It's not so hard. Of course, I did have the trusty tobasco and bitter spray when it was a habit set in stone and I was having trouble shifting it, so I guess an e-collar is the doggy equivalent of my tobasco/bitter spray. And yeah, his latest habit of peeing all over the cage instead of in his litter tray is a doozy and doing my head in. And my nose. And probably the kitchen floor because I don't think his cage is as waterproof as I'd like it to be. In the end, I usually leave habits if they're not potentially dangerous and/or I don't have a kind way to tackle them.

K9: Probably best leave it there lol...

C:

[laeral]

Those are very valid points corvus, but I want reliability no matter what. I cant carry around treats and toys with me all the time. It may work once, but if Fly sees a cat across the road when she is off leash, I take no chances in delay, or her particular level of interest at the time.

I want both my dogs t be able to run together again, rather than run OFF in a pack drive...

Oh yes i understand and agree completely

Corvus - what you are describing is a type of drive training - however have you ever met a dog with little or no usable prey drive?? or one that has actually succedded in chasing the rabbit/bird etc and caught it for the fun - i think you will find they are a little more difficult to get 100% compliance

Until I taught her to chase kangaroos. Don't ask me what was going through my head when I started doing that, but teaching her to chase roos was a lot easier than teaching her NOT to chase roos.

Corvus I do appreciate your feedback re the E collar, it is good to get various opinions and discussion. However I must say that i was a little alarmed that you trained your dog to chase kangaroos. While it is a corgi and not likely to catch a roo it can be a very dangerous past time for any dog to be engaged in. When my girl was 8 months old she was out with me collecting wood on my property. up until this point she had half hartedly chased a roo or two but it wasnt serious. She saw a big roo in the paddock next door and took off after it, she went through the neighbours and my paddock, across a major road and into another paddock with a dam. This is where the roo stopped. By the time I had caught up to them my silly girl went in for a sniff of the roo which promptly pounced on her and held her underwater. This is a common defence strategy of roos and has happened to a friends dog and didnt end so well. I was lucky as the roo got distracted as I charged at it screaming and brandishing a large stick, NOT smart as it was taller than me! As it was distracted Mica managed to struggle out from underneath it and get out of the dam unharmed.

Admitadly i am a bit of an alarmist when it comes to roos due to this exprience, but for me it is VITAL to teach my dog not to chase roos for her own survival.

[Erny]

I know of a dog (staffy) that chased a roo ...... and the roo ripped her stomach for her trouble. She lived, but it was serious.