Dangers Of Barf Diets

[Fin]

I'm looking to get a dog soon and have been looking at the different options for canine diets. While the BARF diet seems to make sense in terms of the health of the animal, I can't quite get past a few things.

1. Bones causing damage to the dogs internal organs.

2. Salmonella/E-Coli poisoning for the dog.

3. Salmonella/E-Coli poisoning for those in close contact with the dog.

The first 2 are possibly a non-issue and I know there are explanations for why they wouldn't cause a problem in a canine, however the last one is what I see as a major issue. How do you ensure that, after eating a meal containing raw chicken, your dog does not come inside and lick you, or chew on a childs toy or lick a childs face etc.

I'd like to feed my dog BARF as, from others accounts, it's better for the dogs health and removes smells etc but with the potential salmonella issue I'm not sure.

Any ideas...

Also, are there any pre-packaged, "safe" dog foods that aren't as bad as the traditional chum type foods?

Edited September 14, 2004 by Fin

[Greytmate]

Hi Fin,

No food is 100% completely safe.

I have read research discussing the dangers of bones and raw food. One danger is the risk of the dog contracting neosporosis. Read this topic to learn about it, and how you can avoid it.

Neosporosis

Some dogs have had problems with bones causing problems to internal organs. It is quite rare though. A problem was caused by a raw bone just recently that we heard about here.

Not Eating, my 16 month old mal has stopped eating

I have never heard of a dog having problems with salmonella, or e.coli. I have never heard of a person poisoned by those things after being licked by a dog. Not to say it will never happen though, maybe it does happen, but people don't think to blame the dog's dinner.

BARF is an excellent diet. I would not say that it is perfect though. It is all about weighing up the risks.

Nothing that your dog can chew is 100% safe. Dogs need to chew things to keep their teeth clean. If something is hard enough to clean the dog's teeth, it is a risk to the dog.

By not giving your dog hard things like bones to chew, you risk your dog getting dental disease. That is a huge risk, and not one that I would be prepared to take.

There are many pre packaged commercial foods that contain much more nutritious ingredients than foods like chum. My advice is to read the label, and avoid feeding any food that lists ingredients that you wouldn't have in your own kitchen.

If you want to feed your dog BARF, be sensible about the size of the bones that you give to your dog, and freeze all of your meat for at least 24 hours before feeding. BARF will keep your dog in the best possible condition.

Good luck.

[Elise]

Have you read Dr. Ian Billinghurst book on Give Your Dog A Bone? Personally, we don't feed the BARF diet, whilst ours do get raw foods. I have read the book though and found it an invaluable source of information.

[MuppetMan]

The Sun will give you cancer, but no sun will kill you....

It's all about moderation in my book.

Find a good quality dry food - something that costs the earth - you get what you pay for most times

check out the ingredients before you buy it and research what you dont understand

Add to that some chicken wings, carcasses, necks, beef bones, lamb necks, lamb shanks and the occassional bit of pork (you will soon learn what your dog cannot tolerate)

That is probably as balanced as most people are going to get - no point in pushing BARF on an audience that is scared - just ease into it!

Supermarket foods that are good...hmmm...well of the canned variety - Nature's Gift and possibly Nature's Own (or some similar name) - nothing else at all, and even those only in emergency.

Dry food - supercoat is about the only one of value

In the meat section? I hear you ask!

Check out those roles and avoid any that use preservatives, colours or gelling agents

I hear that four paws stuff isn't bad - all it did was give my dog gas.

Everyone will have their own opinion - but mine over all is this

Feed what works!

[noisymina]

No matter what you choose to feed your dog, I'll bet that is the least of your worries as far a hygiene is concerned.

Lets see - dogs eat - bones revived from the garden, lizards, mice, birds and lots of other things I won't mention here.

Add teeth that are not always as clean as, say, ours usually are, and will be worse if no bones are given.

Yes, I'd be worried about a dog licking my/my childrens faces too.

Just teach the dogs not to lick faces - and hands too if necessary, but we let them lick the hands since we always wash our hands after touching the dog anyway.

Our children learned very early to wash hands - in all sorts of situations, specially after touching animals and we do the same, so they also had an example to follow. No illnesses contracted as far as I know.

cheers

ps Suggest children (and their toys) be in separate area to dog & young children always be supervised with dogs.

Edited September 14, 2004 by noisymina

[Fin]

Thanks for the info, it seems that freezing may also "help" kill salmonella but it's not safe enough for humans to rely on.

I really would like to feed BARF as all the anecdotal evidence points to significant benefits for the dog (although there is no laboratory or scientific evidence).

So really, the answer is in the management of the risk rather than it's eradication. Stop the dog chewing childrens toys and licking the kids.

I also noticed that a lot of the anti-BARF articles refute that domestic dogs digestive tracts are close to wolves etc. Has anyone seen any dietary/lifespan etc comparison of the domestic dog to dingos, which I imagine are the closest wild animal to the domestic dog.

Andrew

[hilaryo]

Fin

It's all so confusing! After reading just about everything I can find on diet for dogs, I'm still a bit undecided. Barf (which includes fruit & veg); raw feeding (no fruit & veg; commercial, etc - of course everyone thinks they are right.

I personally feed a bit of everything. My dogs get a small amount of good quality dry food, human grade mince - chicken, lamb or beef, chicken drumsticks, wings, etc, veg every few days and sardines in oil a couple of times a week. It's not the cheapest diet but it's what I feel happy feeding.

I have never had a problem with bones getting stuck and after reading about Neosporosis (thanks Greytmate) just to be on the safe side I now freeze first.

Because we love our animals we all obsess about feeding what's best for them but I do know quite a few dogs that are fed purely on commercial and they seem as healthy as mine. : :D

[goldenpup]

well....what do you think wolves eat? or dingoes? BONES raw food! they do not have microwaves or ovens....and I doubt they are going to sit it in the sun waiting for it cook

dingoes very healthy and wolves too, because they eat and "all natural" diet :D commercial food whether it be dry or tin even petmince.. it is all CRAP, if we dont eat it....they shouldnt either.

[Fin]

I don't really want to get into a debate about whether BARF is better or not, but I will say that the "what they eat in the wild" line is regularly quoted in most pro-BARF articles, without addressing the fact that dingos and wolves don't live nearly as long as the domestic dog (due to many causes).

Having said that, anecdotal evidence quoted by nearly everyone that has used BARF says that their dog is healthier etc.

I'm really after ways to minimise the risk of exposure to Salmonella and E-Coli, mainly to my daughter.

Andrew

[Ceilidh]

Add teeth that are not always as clean as, say, ours usually are, and will be worse if no bones are given.

Actually I have to differ here. When I recently got my finger savagely ripped open by a SWF and went to the emergency dept at the hospital the doctor asked if it was an animal or human bite. He was relieved when I said a dog. They place bites in this order, the worse to get is last: dog, cat, human. Yes that's right, a human bite is by far the worst as the human mouth is not as hygienic as a dog or cat and you have more chance of infection.

[iceni]

well said, having worked in ED I have not seen a septic arthritis from an animal bite but sure have seen plenty from human "bites" usually occurring when one member of the human species had decided to punch another member of the human species in the mouth for reasons best known to them

Edited September 16, 2004 by iceni

[aatainc]

Celidh,

I suspect perhaps this is because human's share more diseases with humans than they do with dogs? Interesting, thanks.

Fin,

go to the thread "overweight cavalier" and read the long long post I posted there - it helps refute some of the worries about raw food.

As for e-coli - if you feed human quality food it is rarely a risk. My mother in law is a top microbiologist in australia - and she feeds her dog raw chicken all the time!

It is important to teach dogs not to touch children's faces, however you also need to think about your child's immune system. If I had an immunocompromised child I'd be a lot more worried - but kids will develop some resistance to these bugs too and overall, this low level long term exposure will make them stronger.

I train assistance dogs. I go out everyday and feed my dogs treats out of my bumbag. I'm pretty much finding myself covered in slobber all of the time. I would pay out about 300 treats per day - directly into my dog's mouths (6 of them at present.) Basically, I would go INSANE if I washed my hands every time I treated a dog. Well I do wash them after a long session or if I'm using really yucky treats, but not just for a tiny bit of slobber. (you should see the slobber marks on my jeans from wiping my hands!) Also, when I'm out in public often a washroom is far away.

I'm sure that I have licked my fingers, eaten, wiped my eyes, handled food etc etc with dog slobber on my hands hundreds of times this week alone. My dogs all eat raw food, especially raw chicken bones. I've never been sick.

I don't really think that the US led "hype" about dogs passing salmonella and e-coli onto people has any factual basis at all.

[Fin]

Thanks for that, most informative.

I read Dr Billinghursts reply to the article and it was similar, but it's good to hear this from someone who has some knowledge of these type of things and has thought through it themselves.

Have you posted your diet somewhere, I'd love to have a look.

[sithspawn]

I have been trying to figure out the best diet for quite awhile now. there seems to be pros and cons to EVERYTHING. One important thing that i have read about though, and i wouldnt go past, is E-coli....This isnt so much a problem in Australia as it is in America and a couple of other places, but it is still a problem. Mainly in mince.

See - we are fine with mince because we cook it all the way through. Same with oyur steak. But if you feed raw mince to a dog that HASNT HAD raw diet before, he runs a very big risk of getting E coli into his system. The best thing to do is pour boiling water through any raw meat you give your dog for the first two weeks or so, until their stomach can handle bad bacteria. A dogs stomach acid is a lot more potent than ours and will kill bad bacteria (such as e coli), but they need to be prepared for it....

Salmonella is a bit different. it goes ALL the way through in poultry. The only sure fire way of getting rid of salmonella is by cooking chicken ALL the way through....

[Steve]

dry dog food is loaded with bacteria , E Coli is everywhere , including on door handles, remote controls ,taps in the dirt, on human grade vegies, etc.

Ive been feeding BARF for a very long time and I have 8 kids. The only time we ever got food poisoning [ salmonella] was from a take away food shop. All the kids and the dogs are trained not to lick faces and just basic common sense hygiene principals. Wash your hands after playing with the dog, and before eating etc.

I have a 7 year old son who has never ever been to the doctor for anything other than vaccinations and as a Mum I dont consider the threat of picking up these kinds of bugs anything to be concerned about . Dogs play around in all kinds of dirty stuff and making a decision not to feed raw food based on this kind of argument doesnt factor in the fact that what YOU feed a dog is better than most things it will choose to feed itself. It will eat its own poo and any other animal"s that it may happen upon, anything smelly and rotten . It will drink from puddles etc . There really is nothing to worry about here.

[tianakaesha]

All the kids and the dogs are trained not to lick faces

I can just see a 5 year old kid going up to some big boofy dog and licking "coz it licked me first!"

[noisymina]

[Steve]

;)

You know what I mean. :D :D

[MissMonaro]

I was told that there is an organism in a dogs stomach that prevents them getting food poisoning from rotten food.

As for dingoes and wolves not living as long - perhaps the fact they are never wormed might have something to do with it.

I give my dogs a bone and they will have it for 3 or 4 weeks. How many people give their dog a bone, and the dog buries it, only to dig it up a month later and start chewing on it.

Wouldnt that be a cause for something nasty ??

My dogs take their bones and sit down in the dirt with it. I used to take them back and wash them off, and they would take them straight back to the dirt. I am sure that dogs arent that dumb that they wouldnt go and eat it on the grass if they were concerned about the dirt factor.

Often wild dogs will eat carrion (ie. road kill) and they don't seem to be any worse off for it. (not that I let my dogs do this)

[Toohey]

I was told that there is an organism in a dogs stomach that prevents them getting food poisoning from rotten food.

I think perhaps you mean enzymes? Dogs also have much stronger hydrochloric acid in their stomach, designed to efficiently break down tough animal muscle and bones. This is one reason why bugs don't tend to survive, and also because their digestive tract is much shorter than a humans, so bugs aren't in there long enough to cause harm.

http://www.natural-akita.com/NaturalCanine..._nutrition.html