Advice From Other Instructors

[JulesP]

I have a 4 month old golden x poodle in my class. I don't think it has had any socialisation at all. The owner says it is good at home but at school it is totally insane. It is so nuts that the owner can't do any of the exercises with it.

I've told him to get the dog out lots.

Apart from that what techniques would you use to settle it down enough for it to be able to learn? At the moment nothing is going to get in.

We are a positive club and I can't handle the dog myself.

[DeltaCharlie]

What sport are we talking about?

Is it food motivated? Toy? Will it focus on either?

I would be working on simply getting the dogs attention and maintaining it for short and long periods of time. If the dog is not paying attention its unlikely to do anything else. At 4 months it is only a baby and they generally are incredibly excited. I started obedience with Delta at 4months but I did so much preparation with her at home and she went to training twice a week to watch while I trained Cody so she was used to being there. When I take foster puppies to training I train with raw chicken hearts- I go home with hands covered in blood but at least it keeps their attention on me. My last one had been going to agility/flyball training 5 days a week and had been to flyball comps etc but she was still really over the top with excitement during her first class. There is no way that she could have been taken out of the house any more than she was

If it were me I would have them working nearby but not actually in the class to begin with. The dog doesn't need the added distraction of other dogs in close proximity, it needs to calm down a little. I would have them working on attention getting and basic things about 5m (or more if needed) away from the class. Allow them to join in for short periods but then move away again if the dog is losing focus. Not sure how long the class is but the attention span of this dog probably isn't long enough to last an entire class.

Edited July 2, 2008 by DeltaCharlie

[JulesP]

It is basic puppy obedience. This is a class that hasn't gone through our very good puppy pre school.

Puppy is not focusing on anything! It is just jumping and biting its owner.

[DeltaCharlie]

What is it like in the carpark?

We have had people work with their dogs in the carpark without even bringing them onto the oval as they are so excited. You need to find the point where the owner still has some control over the dog and work on focus activities there. It may take weeks for this dog to get anywhere near working in the class unfortunately. The owner needs to start taking the dog to random local parks (if you can convince them ) and working on simple things there aswell so the dog is used to working in other environments. If they are feeling excluded from the class it may be the kick up the bum they need to put in some effort themselves.

What are the other dogs like? It sounds like they are under control but they are probably still excited and bouncy which would be getting this pup even more worked up. I have actually put puppies into advanced classes in the past as the other dogs are calm and working so the pup calms down too.

[Kavik]

I would also work on focus - that can be their homework! The usual, start in low distraction and build up. Are they cluey enough to try a clicker? With some YUMMY treats? 4 month old pups are fun

[JulesP]

The other pups aren't too bad. Just normal pups. These ones worry me as they need the most help and I don't want to lose him as I can see this pup ending up at a animal aid!!

The difference between the pups that have done pre-school and the ones that have done nothing is amazing.

[Guest Willow]

what are they feeding the pup???? There have been some links between certain "good" brands of food, and hyperactivity in otherwise normal puppies that are intolerant to the high protein levels of these particular foods....I'm not suggesting simply changing food will fix things, but if the puppy is a little "fizzy" a diet change may just take the edge off things a little & help him settle enough to focus & learn....

[dogdude]

My advice is to get the owners partner or someone to just sit on the sidelines with the dog, and have the owner sit in on the class.

Like the others say, get them to concentrate on focus both at home and at the club. Maybe teach the down stay too, to use as a behavioral modification while at class. They will just have to be patient with a dog like that.

[Cosmolo]

Is there a floating instructor that can assist these people one on one within the class? Sounds like thats what they need. Its one thing to get the dog out and about alot- but if the dog is just practicing the bad behaviour, it will spiral and get worse- even though the effort is being made.

Given its a positive club (as to be honest, from the sounds of things- i would likely give some kind of correction in combination with the rewards) i think clicker training would be a good idea and a focus command so that they can be taught at home and reinforced in class.

[JulesP]

We use a marker word rather than a clicker.

I taught them all 'watch' last week even though it is not normally taught as a separate exercise there. Don't know why it isn't as it is one of the first things I work on.

If I can't get some control next week then I will have to see about one-on-one.

[Staff'n'Toller]

There are dogs that are just way too anxious and cannot handle being in a class environment so close to other dogs. This dog *may* be one of those.

It's a "oh my goodness I'm so hyper-stimulated by everything going on around me I can't think straight" sort of reaction.

Mel.

[Nekhbet]

Sounds like this dog needs to learn to respect its owner and learn consequence before being completely put into a positive training club.

Owners can be very vague as to what "he's fine at home" means as well ... no dog thats an angel suddenly turns into a nut job once a week. Definately one on one behaviour modification before attending obedience is a better idea then plugging away in a group situation.

StaffnToller ... There is ways and means for every dog out there, you just have to work it out with the right reaction/equipment for the behaviour you can get a dog to do anything.

Edited July 2, 2008 by Nekhbet

[Kelpie-i]

We currently have a pup with similar issues...a gorgeous Scottish Terrier, that comes to school.

We have given the owner lots of focus exercises to work with using a clicker. I find the clicker gives the person something to think about as opposed to just using a marker. They forget to watch the dog and forget to mark or mark at the wrong time, but as soon as you give them a clicker, it's like something sort of "clicks" (pardon the pun) and they watch their dog for slight changes in behaviour and work with it. Admittedly, this may take some practice initially, but it gives the owner a purpose and something to work with.

The pup had never been out of the house until it was 4 months old (as per the vet's advice) and now he is extremely reactive to other dogs. The owner was in tears initially but is making some very good progress with both her timing and her dog's behaviour.

[Staff'n'Toller]

StaffnToller ... There is ways and means for every dog out there, you just have to work it out with the right reaction/equipment for the behaviour you can get a dog to do anything.

I never said she couldn't, a group situation just may not be the right thing for this dog at this time. Croydon is a huge club, it's not just about the dogs in class, it's about everything else going on in the environment. It's not about JulesP getting this dog to do anything- the focus is not on the human- it's what is best for the dog at this time.

The last thing an anxious dog needs is corrections for it's natural (albeit abnormal) behaviour responses at this time- if it is truly anxious- that is too hard to assume on an internet forum.

Mel.

Edited July 2, 2008 by Staff'n'Toller

[Nekhbet]

yes it is a shame that some vets value vaccination scaremongering over the dogs mental health.

Argued about this with my boss, and especially for some more reactive breeds they HAVE to go out and be exposed to the world during critical period. Makes them nicer for said vet to handle the next time too

[Jigsaw]

Have you read Control Unleashed by Leslie McDevitt? She has some great advice for dogs that are highly reactive.

At 4 months concentration for any length of time is hard. As someone said I would be getting this dog out to as many different environments as I could and just let it look at things and get used to the world, working in a calm manner, not asking for any behaviours. Don't worry about the focus at the moment. Most of the training should be happening in a less stimulating environment like home.

My pup was and still is at times hyper stimulated and she has been +ve trained, I have had to move right back away from other dogs in class. Trying to get her attention was hopeless, she refused food under distraction, didn't even look at it or sniff it. In a class situation if it got really bad (blood drawn!) I would walk a little way away and then ask for a sit, then we would return to the class. We did have some floating instructors which was good because occasionally they would take her for a walk and give me a break so I could listen!

ETA: my dog is good at home, sit, drop, waits on her mat for dinner! Just reacts to unfamiliar environments, excitement, stimulation overload! But at 6 months she is now much better.

Edited July 2, 2008 by Jigsaw

[JulesP]

Doggie isn't anxious or worried. Just super excited.

[Akitaowner]

if dog is super excited - work out what the critical distance from other people/dogs is and make them stay/work there.

Once the dog has gone hyper you wont be able to get anything thru to it - and the exercise/discipline becomes futile.

Most people usually find that for the duration of the class they can get nearer to the main class once the dog starts to settle down. it may take a few weeks.

Maybe tell them to bring a chair and just sit and watch, see what the dog does ie if it settles or not.

anxious people = anxious/hyper dog

[Pippi]

I have a 4 month old golden x poodle in my class. I don't think it has had any socialisation at all. The owner says it is good at home but at school it is totally insane. It is so nuts that the owner can't do any of the exercises with it.

I've told him to get the dog out lots.

Apart from that what techniques would you use to settle it down enough for it to be able to learn? At the moment nothing is going to get in.

We are a positive club and I can't handle the dog myself.

The dog may very well be good at home, but if it has had little socialisation then it is to be expected that the dog will go over the top with excitement when it goes out, particularly to dog school. JulesP, you are correct that the dog probably does need to get out more but there is more to it than that. The dog not only needs to get out more but needs to learn acceptable behaviour when it does get out. That is calm, focus, pay attention to me when I ask.

A dog that is out of control with excitement is not in a position to learn anything, you are wasting your time and the handlers. The first thing is to teach the dog that there is no value or reward in leaping about in excitement, IMO there is no point in correcting the dog at this stage either, because he has yet to learn what it is that the handler requires of him.

I would start at a distance where I have no or little reaction from the dog and slowly work at decreasing that distance. At this point I am standing perfectly still and not moving, I have a good strong collar and lead on the dog and my hands holding the lead are glued to my stomach so that the dog cannot pull me over or pull my hands away from my stomach. Now the dog can start to learn - the moment I get any calm behaviour, such as dog stops leaping and orientates to me, dog moves toward me so that tension on lead is loosened, dog stays beside me, dog lays at my feet - any of these behaviours are marked (YES or clicker) and rewarded immediately. You or the handler may spend the entire class just doing this one exercise, but if done correctly the dog will learn what behaviour is required and what behaviour is not acceptable.

It is imperative that the dog never wins, he cannot get his way and achieve success. It is also imperative that the handler marks and rewards correct behaviour. Once the dog has learnt this exercise well, he can commence learning other exercises.

[Kelpie-i]

Very well written Pippi.

Corrections at this point are useless unless the behaviour is learned, which is the only time a correction may come into play. However, IMO, it is quite dangerous to assume that it is learned behaviour at this young age, therefore best to use techniques that will not create aversions and problems down the track.

Dogs with reactivity issues are usually loaded and are not in a frame of mind TO learn anything. A calm state is when the learning process occurs so as Pippi stated, best to start slow and work at critical distance point and simply reward the calm behaviour. This teaches a new behaviour and one that the handler can call on when required.

Each time this dog reacts, he is given the opportunity to reinforce his own actions and if you think this sort of behaviour cannot turn into aggression....think again!