I Got A Dog Trainer In

[CBL]

I got someone to pay us a house visit in an attempt to deal with Oscar's crate issues. I didn't realise just what problems we have! Patch is actually a very anxious dog, trying to be pack leader. I hadn't picked up on all the dominance displays!

The biggest change - no dogs in the bedroom - both of them out in the back room from tonight. No cuddles on the couch either I love cuddle time with both my boys

It was also suggested that I stick with dry food for a while (they also get raw) due to high levels of protein leading to anxiety issues.

Have a whole list of things to do - I know it is for the best with them but I feel like all 'our' time together has been taken away.

[Cosmolo]

I have never heard of a raw diet creating or contributing to anxiety issues

[Miss Helena]

Ohhh, good luck, sounds pretty "harsh"!

Surprising to hear re raw food and high protein issues - can you elaborate?

[CBL]

I have never heard of a raw diet creating or contributing to anxiety issues

something to do with too much protein? want to research this one a bit more.

[persephone]

Surprising to hear re raw food and high protein issues - can you elaborate?

Hmmm.. this is an interesting approach ...

hope it goes well for you.

[CBL]

I have some reading to do. Will be interested to hear other opinions.

I have a very cranky hubby - I told him what she suggested and he thinks it is all rubbish. I tried to tell him that she watched them both playing and said how great they were together and not to pull them up on the mouthing, oscar biting and playing etc etc. He thinks it is 'not acceptable'.

Why pay all that money to get a professional in, and then disregard everything they suggest?

[Tonymc]

CBL, its all about the trainer encouraging you and hubby to treat the dogs as dogs.A good written resource is "Natural Dog Training" by Kevin Behan. Tony

[CBL]

CBL, its all about the trainer encouraging you and hubby to treat the dogs as dogs.A good written resource is "Natural Dog Training" by Kevin Behan. Tony

Yep I agree Tony - while I was aware I should have more boundaries I wasn't enforcing it.

While I got her in to help Oscar, I didn't realise the level of anxiety that Patch has. We always just thought he was a clingy dog, liked to be with you. Never saw it as anxiety/dominance.

[Monah]

Oh, you poor thing! Maybe once it is all under control you will be allowed to make very small changes?

I took mine off a raw diet for ages then slowly intro necks occasionally. Our problem was that one is very food driven and would go ape even over the smell of 'blood' on the floor/bowl etc so I was terrified of scent being anywhere. i guess my terror translated to the dogs anxiety.?? Anyway, we have all been MUCH more relaxed/happier since a change of diet around 12 months ago. NO bones, very little raw, low value stuff usually, fed separate (doing that anyway). It did make a difference and now I can treat them together when training with high value things which I could not have done 12 months ago

I have slacked off on boundaries a bit, lazy I guess so must get my act together.

Good luck CBL It's very hard I know, but it has worked nicely for us.

[CBL]

Oh, you poor thing! Maybe once it is all under control you will be allowed to make very small changes?

I took mine off a raw diet for ages then slowly intro necks occasionally. Our problem was that one is very food driven and would go ape even over the smell of 'blood' on the floor/bowl etc so I was terrified of scent being anywhere. i guess my terror translated to the dogs anxiety.?? Anyway, we have all been MUCH more relaxed/happier since a change of diet around 12 months ago. NO bones, very little raw, low value stuff usually, fed separate (doing that anyway). It did make a difference and now I can treat them together when training with high value things which I could not have done 12 months ago

I have slacked off on boundaries a bit, lazy I guess so must get my act together.

Good luck CBL It's very hard I know, but it has worked nicely for us.

I hope so!

Not sure that I am going to go with all that she recommended - but think I will focus more on NILIF with both of them - and no more on the furniture

[4 Paws]

never heard of protein causing anxiety issues either and i feed a high protein diet(orijen)

what trainer did you get CBL?

Hope you get some issues sorted with oscar soon than and OH comes to the party

[poocow]

This sounds like dogtech stuff...

[Rusky]

I have never heard of a raw diet creating or contributing to anxiety issues

yes it does. Heaps of info on the net, suggestion is to have a 20% or less protein diet for anxious or hyperactive dogs. Just had a GSD who went on a low protein diet with an amazing change in anxiety levels after a couple of days.

[Cosmolo]

Do you have a link to some info Rusky? Genuinely interested What about some of the additives and preservatives in processed foods contributing in a similar manner?

[4 Paws]

I wanted to check out about the protein issue out as well and found this info on thepetcentre.com

PROTEIN AND HYPERACTIVITY

Most dog caretakers at one time or another have heard this pronouncement... "High protein diets can make dogs hyper!" I have searched the literature and contacted nutrition specialists regarding this myth and nowhere can I find any scientific study that proves this unfounded contention. There are no biochemical or nutritional factors that would even make this supposition appear to be credible. Hyperactivity in dogs has numerous potential motivators, including genetic temperament predispositions, but a link between high levels of protein in a dog's diet and hyperactivity has yet to be proven. I listened to a canine "expert" once tell me that Purina Hi Pro was causing hyperactivity in dogs and that he's seen it happen. I politely pointed out that Purina Hi Pro is in fact not high in protein at all... and yet the myth goes on.

Feed your dog a high quality, meat-based diet and, just as Nature set things up, your dog will thrive. Fear not the feeding of Protein

am interested in finding more info though especially a i sell a high protein food so good to know

[B-Q]

Our behavioursit also suggsted turning the boys over to vets all natural and reducing their meat due to their agression issues. We havn't done it, mainly because it's one thing I'm not really comfortable with. I want to see what changes we can make with training first.

It was a big argument to get my mum to even see a behaviourist, now after one session it's being hard to get her to follow up on much, I can't understand why'd she pay the money and not even give it a go.

It's helped with Buster a lot though, I've been paying a lot more attention to his stays now and he's getting great at it, along with other things I can see him improving.

[Staff'n'Toller]

There are some studies done on high protein diets and increase in aggressive behaviour. James O'Heare writes about it in his Canine Neuropsychology book, it talks about feeding a carbohydrate meal an hour? after a protein meal or something to that affect.

I'm not sure that there are any studies done on anxiety and raw, I have found the opposite with my Toller, on dry food he was like a 5yr old on speed- couldn't think straight.

Mel.

[Rusky]

Do you have a link to some info Rusky? Genuinely interested What about some of the additives and preservatives in processed foods contributing in a similar manner?

we burn protein for energy, so do dogs.

you need to troll through stuff I am not comfortable reading though there are also humane experiments. I am positive you are right about additives and preservatives, one of my dogs has to eat a natural diet or she gets sick.I had a child who would go loopy with red food colouring as a toddler. So many colourings in dog food, you would have to wonder about similar responses.

I am sure that after much testing the conclusions really are sensible in that any high protein diet ( even in humans) means high energy. The protein reduction I spoke of was from 25 to 20% in the kibble. High energy working dogs obviously require high protein like all athletes. Many dogs sit around in the back yard and get little stimulation or activity despite the odd walk here and there. Those dogs need excercise, plus time and training for the mind and the body.

I recently told a lass with a high energy dog to take her dog to the beach, let it off lead and let it run. She was worried the dog might not recall yet her in class recall was great. She took a long line, then got brave and let him off...he did recall, was rewarded and let free again. He now has a daily run on the beach and is much much calmer. He is fed a fresh diet and I didn't even think of protein in her situation, the dog just wanted to run, was meant to run. With all his added excercise he may need an increase in his protein intake.

I just really wanted to test the idea about the protein in a certain situation. It was documented so why not try it? However the diet was combined with training and excercise. Vets suggest a low protein diet for types of aggression and anxiety. I am guessing that diet alone would not be a miracle cure but reduction in anxiety and aggression have been noted.

It might be worth trying if you have a dog which is anxious and pacing, distracted, jumpy, nervous and leaping on the lead. It can't do any harm at all over a week period, the reduction in protein is not dangerous. I would prefer to try diet before drugs or DAP.I would always combine with a training programme.

[CBL]

Thanks everyone, this is turning into a interesting discussion

Patch doesn't have agression issues, seems to be more anxiety - he wants to be with us all the time, licking his lips etc when he is blocked from doing that. We have decided to go with more of a NILIF program (same principles as the trainer, only maybe not as dramatic), and see how we go. I am going to still feed some raw food but reduce it and use more kibble.

As for Oscar's crate training, which was the big issue I wanted fixed - just have to keep persevering, putting him in and rewarding quiet behaviour.

[CBL]

Ugh - Patch has, in the last 2 days - peed in the house, in the same spot 3 times! We are wondering whether it is marking, so dominance, or whether he is attracted to the smell of the clothes in the bags he has been peeing on (they were in storage and had moth balls in them). Either way, I have booked him in for some private training lessons with another obedience instruction so we can get this NILIF thing down pat and I am going back to taking him out to the toilet rather than waiting on him to tell me.

Anyone know the best way to get rid of the smell (have been using hot water with floor cleaner and a spray that is supposed to stop the smell) - or how to get the light grey grout on my brand new tiled floor back to its original colour?