Is This Dominance?

[haven]

Wow, I never really picked you as a nasty or unreasonable person Pax but I sure can't see any justification or provocation for your hostility or your personal attacks in this thread.

[jaybeece]

Wow, I never really picked you as a nasty or unreasonable person Pax but I sure can't see any justification or provocation for your hostility or your personal attacks in this thread.

Think I'm missing something too, what on earth did Midol say that was so terrible? Everything he's said sounds pretty reasonable to me.

[MonElite]

Gizmo sleeping on my bed has NO negative consequences

How do you know? Perhaps its the reason you cant get a reliable recall....

I need an e-collar for when I start protection work (unless you are the first person I've come across to use only +ve methods to protection train a dog) and I figured since I am in Sydney it is a perfect time to obtain one.

There are plenty of people that use positive methods and never put an ecollar on the dog and they do protection work. Try googling Uta Bindles as the first example that comes to mind.

I also believe the only way to get a reliable off leash long distance recall is with an e-collar. A view many of the top trainers share, but that's a discussion for another day.

Where I have nothing against an ecollar when its used correctly and belive strongly that its a great training tool, I belive also that it is possible to get a very reliable recall without this particular tool. And plenty of people have achieved that.

[Choppa Chop]

Gizmo sleeping on my bed has NO negative consequences

How do you know? Perhaps its the reason you cant get a reliable recall....

I need an e-collar for when I start protection work (unless you are the first person I've come across to use only +ve methods to protection train a dog) and I figured since I am in Sydney it is a perfect time to obtain one.

There are plenty of people that use positive methods and never put an ecollar on the dog and they do protection work. Try googling Uta Bindles as the first example that comes to mind.

I also believe the only way to get a reliable off leash long distance recall is with an e-collar. A view many of the top trainers share, but that's a discussion for another day.

Where I have nothing against an ecollar when its used correctly and belive strongly that its a great training tool, I belive also that it is possible to get a very reliable recall without this particular tool. And plenty of people have achieved that.

Come again ?

Are you drawing an assumption between sleeping on beds to recall?

[MonElite]

Are you drawing an assumption between sleeping on beds to recall?

Yep. Lack of correct pack structure can be attributing to lack of recall. Sleeping on the bed and demanding attention can be a sign of incorrect pack structure.

Edited July 1, 2008 by Monelite

[Choppa Chop]

Are you drawing an assumption between sleeping on beds to recall?

Yep. Lack of correct pack structure can be attributing to lack of recall. Sleeping on the bed and demanding attention can be a sign of incorrect pack structure.

Well obviously I disagree with that assumption but it's certainly an interesting concept.

In what way could the infrastructure of 'pack order' affect a recall?

Genuine question.

For example , lowest pack order still no recall,highest pack oredr/slight dominance issues but fantastic recall.

Where would one begin to look for the 'glitch' so to speak.

[MonElite]

Well obviously I disagree with that assumption but it's certainly an interesting concept.

I didnt say "sleeping on the bed leads to no recall".

I said that those two things (with dozens of other aspects) CAN be a contributor.

For example , lowest pack order still no recall,highest pack oredr/slight dominance issues but fantastic recall.

Where would one begin to look for the 'glitch' so to speak.

In the teaching/training and dogs understaning of the requirement, or maybe you have the wrong assumption about the pack order. Does the lowest pack member "recall" to the other dog?

Who knows where YOUR glitch is, this is pure theory and speculations.

[JulesP]

Pack structure with you, not with the other dogs.

[Choppa Chop]

Well yes , pack structure re owner/dog situation naturaly.

But re my example , one dog with slight dominance issues . Fantastic recall.

One very submissive dog . No recall to speak of.

So how would one work from that concept?

And when put in that light Monelite , amongst other many contributing factors , well then yes it can be understood.

However , when worked through and stripped down I would be very surprised that one could draw an assumption between sleeping on the bed and recall .

[Guest Tess32]

Perhaps the 'dominant' dog simply finds recalling very rewarding and so it isn't a matter of contention.

If a person and a dominant dog never want different things then the dog wouldn't have the need or chance to refuse.

[MonElite]

And when put in that light Monelite , amongst other many contributing factors , well then yes it can be understood.

However , when worked through and stripped down I would be very surprised that one could draw an assumption between sleeping on the bed and recall .

I didnt draw this assumption, perhaps you read more into what I have written?

But re my example , one dog with slight dominance issues . Fantastic recall.

One very submissive dog . No recall to speak of.

So how would one work from that concept?

Ill do a shot in the dark, pure theory potential explanation here. This is not to say this is how it is.

Training asside, what dogs find rewarding asside. The dominant dog treats you as a pack leader, the submissive dog treats the dominant dog as the pack leader.

Edited July 1, 2008 by Monelite

[Choppa Chop]

And when put in that light Monelite , amongst other many contributing factors , well then yes it can be understood.

However , when worked through and stripped down I would be very surprised that one could draw an assumption between sleeping on the bed and recall .

I didnt draw this assumption, perhaps you read more into what I have written?

But re my example , one dog with slight dominance issues . Fantastic recall.

One very submissive dog . No recall to speak of.

So how would one work from that concept?

Ill do a shot in the dark, pure theory potential explanation here. This is not to say this is how it is.

Training asside, what dogs find rewarding asside. The dominant dog treats you as a pack leader, the submissive dog treats the dominant dog as the pack leader.

Perhaps I did Monelite .

It was just your first statement is all and it seemed clear cut until you added the further defining factors.

Your theory shot is one well worth considering and is something one could take away,study and learn from.

This was all I was asking , a genuine question.

Thankyou.

[MonElite]

Im glad you found my answer thought provoking Choppa.

[Just Midol]

I've stated numerous times that Gizmo IS below me in pack structure.

ETA:I am not going to discuss the e-collar in this thread or my training methods. I asked a simple question, that's all I wanted answered. If you feel like attacking me for letting him on the bed then go ahead but I'm not going to give those comments a response any longer.

Edited July 1, 2008 by Lord Midol

[MonElite]

I asked a simple question, that's all I wanted answered.

the simple answer to your simple questions is - it possibly is dominance.

Edited July 1, 2008 by Monelite

[Mooper]

If my dog did it to me, I would see it as dominance. But nobody knows your dog as well as you do.

[MonElite]

Midol OT question re this

when I start protection work

what do are you going to do this with? Do you know whats involved? Do you have a trainer you will be doing this with? and lastly do you have the knowledge to engage in this type of training?

[Luke GSP]

I've stated numerous times that Gizmo IS below me in pack structure.

How do KNOW this? Surely if you were comfortable that you are 100% Alpha you would not concern yourself with a behaviour like the one you are describing as it seems to me that you don't dislike it so why worry about it if you and he can enjoy that act without any concerns to your pack status as you are 100% that he is below you?

[Just Midol]

If my dog did it to me, I would see it as dominance. But nobody knows your dog as well as you do.

I was more asking if in general, behaviour like that would be considered dominance related. BEFORE I created this thread I was 99.9% sure he just wanted to be close but I was curious as to how others would interpret similar behaviour in dogs. I am not a dog training, I do not have much experience training dogs so I wanted the opinions of more experienced trainers on how they MIGHT interpret such behaviour (so I could look at it from another perspective.)

Midol OT question re this

when I start protection work

what do are you going to do this with? Do you know whats involved? Do you have a trainer you will be doing this with? and lastly do you have the knowledge to engage in this type of training?

Security, yes, no, no.

I've stated numerous times that Gizmo IS below me in pack structure.

How do KNOW this? Surely if you were comfortable that you are 100% Alpha you would not concern yourself with a behaviour like the one you are describing as it seems to me that you don't dislike it so why worry about it if you and he can enjoy that act without any concerns to your pack status as you are 100% that he is below you?

I am confortable. You are assuming that I created this thread because I was worried. It was more of a general question...

I know it alright, so like I said to pax, bugger off if you are going to keep questioning this ONE thing.

Geez, do I really need to write a bloody essay explaining why I ask something every time I do?

[Mooper]

If my dog did it to me, I would see it as dominance. But nobody knows your dog as well as you do.

I was more asking if in general, behaviour like that would be considered dominance related. BEFORE I created this thread I was 99.9% sure he just wanted to be close but I was curious as to how others would interpret similar behaviour in dogs. I am not a dog training, I do not have much experience training dogs so I wanted the opinions of more experienced trainers on how they MIGHT interpret such behaviour (so I could look at it from another perspective.)

And I'm saying that, in general, I would consider that behaviour to be dominance related.

I won't let my dog on any of the household furniture. He goes into and out of doors when invited. He eats after me, and only once released. He sits for any form of attention.

But I have only trained my dog. I am therefore not the experienced trainer from whom you sought opinions, so I'll butt out

Good luck with Gizmo.