Toileting?

[viddee]

Astro's my never ending timtam packet of weeeeee.

When I picked him up a few weeks ago, he was paper trained (yay) but once I started outside toilet training, any time he did need to go inside, he just went randomly (number 1s and 2s) - on the tiles, on the bath mat where he likes to lay, on his bed! and to my horror he squat over his water bowl - I was not expecting that. I try to take him out ever 15minutes to half hour because he just goes so often.

His food and bed are now raised (on trampoline bed) and on a feeder though respectively, so he's stopped weeing there, I think - too much effort to climb up to wee/poo.

Should I just take the paper away for good?

One thing I'm concerned about is that recently, he's been pooping during the night on the tiles. I had been lazy with taking him out at night 2 weeks after I brought him home (bad Vicky, Bad bad) but I had Med exams and was functioning on 5 hours sleep as it was (excuses excuses, I know). I took him out 1am and at 6:30 when we wake up, but he likes his 3am dump.

I was wondering, now given that he's 11 weeks, but already has the poop-anywhere-in-the-house-at-night mentally reinforced - how long it is going to take me?

My guess is that he still doesn't know that inside = home, outside = toilet.

And I'm reluctant to crate train given that he likes to deficate the places where he lays. I thought they didn't like to go where they slept or ate

Any experiences or advice appreciated muchly.

[toydogs]

at 11 weeks they are still babies and it is going to take a few months for a pup that young to house train. Like babies, yes they do their business often and now because he has done it pretty much everywhere in your house it sounds like? he has gotten into that routine.

I'd recommend to keep him in one area, the best way to do this, like we do with our puppies, is to buy a puppy pen and set it up over the tiles (we have tiles in the kitchen area and living area so it makes it easy)

you are going to have to start from scratch again as he has gotten into another habit, so cover the whole area with paper, once he has been on paper for about a week gradually reduce the area, this may take a few weeks to accomplish given his bad habits he has gotten into.

eventually you'll end up with a stack in the corner and he will only go there. I have a 9 week old puppy at the moment that we bred, he is going into the litter box (i put papers in a litter box) he is pooing and weeing in there. he also still goes on the newspaper randomly. all our puppies for the past 20 odd years have been trained this way. and plus i have males that are housetrained even when bitches are in season, other breeders have said how is that possible? well its possible through training....... with puppies you have to be consistent and repeat repeat and repeat and be patient not raising voices, if you manage to catch your puppy in the act of toileting where he is not supposed to go, then grab him and take him outside or on the paper. they don't like this been interupted! it gets the message across where they are supposed to do it.

you cannot expect much from a puppy, their attention span is short and their bladder is not strong enough to hold wee for long periods.

ETA: if you take the paper away from the adults, im not talking about pups, they will not do it anywhere they will wait until taken outside they know not to do it inside but for puppies because they no.1's and 2's so often you have to have something for them otherwise they will do it anywhere like your puppy is doing. you can't really expect them to hold it for very long not a baby.

hope this helps and good luck with your house training.

Edited June 28, 2008 by toydogs

[Andanin]

Just thought I'd mention about the waterbowl - some young animals in many species urinate in water at certain times. It's a survival mechanism for masking/diluting their scent so that predators don't catch it and find them when mum isn't around to protect them. It particularly seen in felines and canines, and may explain why he did this.

Edited for Clarification.

Edited June 28, 2008 by Andanin

[Dog Sense]

Astro's my never ending timtam packet of weeeeee......

Panic. :D If a pup isn't toilet trained by 12 weeks then you're setting yourself up to own an "indiscriminate toileter", i.e., a pup that goes wherever it likes, the smaller the breed, the worse your chances are of improvement (because smaller breeds mentally mature much earlier than larger breeds, so you've got more development crammed into the 12 weeks). Get serious right now. You *can* train this puppy to hold it and to toilet outside on the grass, but you have to stop making excuses and you have very limited time in which to do it. For an average pup, it can happen in less than two weeks but I know people who do it in six days. Tips:

Feed your puppy at regular times - at nearly 12 weeks should be no more than 3 times/day (except training treats but these are deducted from meals).

Don’t leave food out – if it isn’t eaten within twenty minutes, remove it.

Don't leave water with your puppy overnight unless it's intensely hot.

Take your puppy outside before meals.

Take your puppy outside immediately after a meal.

Take your puppy outside after he wakes up - that includes getting up during the night to go outside.

Take your puppy outside if he walks in circles or sniffs the floor a lot.

Make a habit of taking your puppy outside each hour, on the hour in addition to the above.

There will be accidents occasionally, just quietly clean them up and make no fuss.

Close doors to rooms which are carpeted or where puppy isn’t allowed unsupervised.

Spend lots of time outdoors so the puppy just doesn't have the opportunity to go inside.

If you have to leave your puppy home alone indoors for extended amounts of time, then: create an area that will be your puppy’s “home” whilst you’re away. For small breeds, a child’s playpen is ideal, otherwise a laundry or bathroom with easy-to-clean floor will do. This area should contain in one corner, the puppy’s bed (or crate), water bowl and food bowl (do not leave a meal out unless you will be absent when it’s due).

It’s natural for puppies to toilet away from their sleeping/eating area, so add a litter tray with dirt or a layer of turf* in the opposite corner to the bed and feeding items. You can cover the floor with newspaper for *your* convenience, but you now want him to think of grass as a toilet! *try to obtain a slice of turf from your yard that either your pup or another dog has wet on already – this will attract your pup there. This turf can be replaced in your yard and new turf cut as the pup gets the idea.

This is another reason why it's hard for smaller breeds - the world is very large and they are very small. So the opposite side of the room could be, in their estimation, a LONG way from their bed and food bowls. Whereas a larger breed might look for a place even further away.

Make sure the pen is welcoming for the puppy by providing strong, interesting toys which are rotated daily (i.e., this is not a sin-bin). You can include toys that dispense tidbits of food, such as from the Kong range or treat balls, or large bones that teething puppies can gnaw on (also can now be a meal replacement bone!). Leave a radio or TV on so the puppy isn’t alone in silence.

When you take your puppy outside, RUN outside with him, give him a sense of urgency but take him on leash to the appropriate place, preferrably somewhere he's wee'd before. If he's on leash he can't get distracted, bolt off and play. Stand still and be as boring as paint drying. Don't let him engage you in play. When you see the sniffing start to happen, don't speak or you'll disturb his concentration - as soon as he starts to go say your magic word "go wee" or whatever doesn't make you feel like an idiot in public. The relief of being empty should be reward enough but you can give a treat after if you like. Then stay outside (obviously not at 3am), leash-off and play with your pup for a few minutes after the event. Gets him into habit of wee'ing first, then playtime rather than playtime and wee as soon as he gets back indoors.

As it looks like he's already tending towards being indiscriminate, I wouldn't give him a chance to do anything indoors ever again, I would make his world very small and close of all access to any room except the one he's in with you when you're home so that you can always read his signals. If you see him about to wee indoors, pick him up and RUN and plop him on the grass - yes, even midstream. Remember the older he gets, the bigger his bladder capacity is (there is a rundown on that on the web somewhere, i.e., at X weeks Y holding time, etc.) so you will eventually be able to expect him to hold all night.

Remember before you embark on this new regime, you now need to scrub your house anywhere he has had an accident, with an enzymatic detergent such as BioZet laundry detergent - this breaks down the part of the deposit that attracts the puppy back there. Don't use anything containing ammonia as that will just attract your puppy to that area (remember urine = ammonia).

It is just not normal for dogs to mess in their water bowls.

Just my $2 worth.

[Taylor!!]

What a great read, very informative and helpful!

[WalandLibby]

Just thought I'd mention about the waterbowl - some young animals in many species urinate in water at certain times. It's a survival mechanism for masking/diluting their scent so that predators don't catch it and find them when mum isn't around to protect them. It particularly seen in felines and canines, and may explain why he did this.

Interesting. I've seen it in adult male dogs in what I think of as chaotic environments, but not in pups. Andanin, do you think it would be associated with a puppy feeling unsafe?

[Andanin]

Sorry WalandLibby, I really couldn't comment on whether or not it was because the pup felt unsafe. I'm not a behaviourlist, just a biology student. I only mentioned it so that viddee could perhaps look into it further if it was something that really worried them.

It's something we learnt whilst doing Animal Biology units in first and second year at uni. We focused on animals in the wild, rather than domestic animals, and were looking at the mechanics, rather than the psychology.

[toydogs]

what breed of dog is the puppy in question? do we know?

Panic. If a pup isn't toilet trained by 12 weeks then you're setting yourself up to own an "indiscriminate toileter", i.e., a pup that goes wherever it likes, the smaller the breed, the worse your chances are of improvement (because smaller breeds mentally mature much earlier than larger breeds, so you've got more development crammed into the 12 weeks). Get serious right now. You *can* train this puppy to hold it and to toilet outside on the grass, but you have to stop making excuses and you have very limited time in which to do it. For an average pup, it can happen in less than two weeks but I know people who do it in six days. Tips: Feed your puppy at regular times - at nearly 12 weeks should be no more than 3 times/day (except training treats but these are deducted from meals). Don’t leave food out – if it isn’t eaten within twenty minutes, remove it.

the reason i say this depending on the breed, small or large, talking to many many owners/breeders of particularly toy breeds, it takes a while for toys to get the toilet training downpat. Some owners even have given up I know not good! but have ascertained that Chihuahuas particularly, are dirty....i've had many say that. But I've spent some time with mine and have actually trained them so i don't agree.........

i have had smaller breeds for, as i said earlier, 25 yrs and i've also owned larger breeds as well and my family have had farm/racing dogs for many years. comparing the two, larger breeds are easier to train in that area. just a fact. toys breeds yes, they mature earlier but that has no bearing in my opinion on how easily they are going to house train, im not saying they will never get it, im just saying it takes a tad longer it seems watching many of our dog/puppy purchasers and talking to many owners.

it depends on what toileting means to you also, toileting could mean going in a designated spot in the house, (litter tray, papers etc.) or toileting could mean the dog indicating that it wants to toilet outside only. different courses for different horses.

it is very involved owning a dog and having an animal that is a pleasure to own, as indicated above by dog sense's post, usually dogs like this, have owners that have time for their dogs and it shows with the dogs/puppies behaviours just like human kids.

so yes, i agree definately no excuses when you own dogs and its not the puppy's fault if they muck up, when owning a dog you either put time into them or not and this does determine whether you end up with a naughty child or not

the more you put into your puppy/dog the better it will be for you and for ultimately for your dog or puppy.

makes sense

Edited June 30, 2008 by toydogs

[toydogs]

Just thought I'd mention about the waterbowl - some young animals in many species urinate in water at certain times. It's a survival mechanism for masking/diluting their scent so that predators don't catch it and find them when mum isn't around to protect them. It particularly seen in felines and canines, and may explain why he did this.

Edited for Clarification.

interesting theory. i have seen dogs wee in their food bowls though, usually because they don't want any of the other dogs to get it, it depends whether the OP has other dogs/puppies or if Astro???? is the only one.

[Dog Sense]

I didn't meant to imply that Astro isn't normal, rather than he was probably just unfortunate to be standing in that exact place when the urge struck.

Also, I am a student of behaviour and although this may be something seen in wild animals or occasionally in mature dogs who like to scent mark (usually on the bowl rather than in it), it's just not normal in a tiny pup - they very much live in the moment of "I need to pee" and it's already coming out. Not unlike toddlers learning to hold it (especially boys), who get engrossed in a game, forget to go until it's too late and suddenly running down their legs.

[toydogs]

I am [/i]a student of behaviour and although this may be something seen in wild animals or occasionally in mature dogs who like to scent mark (usually on the bowl rather than in it), it's just not normal in a tiny pup - they very much live in the moment of "I need to pee" and it's already coming out. Not unlike toddlers learning to hold it (especially boys), who get engrossed in a game, forget to go until it's too late and suddenly running down their legs.

puppies don't really from my experience anyway, do things that complicated. usually if they are going to pee in bowls it happens much later when they are mature, puppy's brains are too under-developed.....the way it is written it looks like the puppy meant to pee in the water bowl or maybe it happened like you described it dog sense, only the owner knows i suppose!!

on the bath mat where he likes to lay, on his bed! and to my horror he squat over his water bowl - I was not expecting that. I try to take him out ever 15minutes to half hour because he just goes so often.

this puppy has a bladder issue thats for sure. but its quite common.

Should I just take the paper away for good?

If it was me, no i wouldn't as this will confuse him even more.

went randomly (number 1s and 2s) - on the tiles, on the bath mat where he likes to lay, on his bed! but already has the poop-anywhere-in-the-house-at-night

I get the impression puppy is not put into one area, he is allowed to roam, i try to advise against this with our new puppy owners, even with adult dogs i advise against for the first few weeks at least. everytime they go to a new house, they have to learn all over again as it confuses them in a new area. if this was presented to me by one of my new owners, i'd say to them, keep your dog confined to one room or an area in a pen etc. and don't give them an opportunity to mess, once they start its very hard to retrain the other way, its slow going. it takes them a while to relearn once they've learned the wrong way.

I brought him home (bad Vicky, Bad bad) but I had Med exams and was functioning on 5 hours sleep as it was (excuses excuses, I know). I took him out 1am and at 6:30 when we wake up, but he likes his 3am dump.

to answer this: waking up at 1am, nope. I work full-time and my partner is a shift worker so we have no need to wake up at this time. even with a 9week old puppy atm. if you keep him in a confined area with paper you won't need to do this especially if he is having bladder problems where he often toilets, if you keep taking him out at 1am and 3am you will get him into the routine of toileting at that time. give your puppy the option of using the toilet by himself then once he has that idea and can have better control and i'd say when he matures a bit more then attempt to move it outside or take it away taking it one step further in your training. its worked for our puppies and dogs. they now get the message, you don't do it in the house only in their designated litter tray when that is down if its not down it is outside.

this is my humble opinion: with astro you need to decide how you are going to house train him and then stick to it be consistent and don't change the routine then he will get it eventually. if you are all overthe place not sure what you have to do so will he be, he'll be confused as well..

Edited June 30, 2008 by toydogs

[persephone]

I would also suggest a vet check- just to make sure there is no infection!

Then as said. pick one plan and , for a whole weekend ( to start with) stick to it 24/7!!

Consistency is the only way :D