Vaccinate,or Not To Vaccinate Yearly.

[nicestman77]

Dear Friends with dogs,

A vet told me years ago you only have to vaccinate dogs at 9 weeks and 14 weeks and that’s it. Or one shot before 12 weeks and one after. Nothing before 8 weeks.nicestman77.

Edited June 27, 2008 by nicestman77

[Miranda]

Definitely NOT I don't vaccinate yearly and haven't done for years, I give C3 puppy shots and one C3 booster at 16 months and that's it.

[Sonic]

Dear Friends with dogs,

My friend who is a vet attended the Jean Dodd's seminar yesterday. Jean is a vet from California involved in vaccine research, her findings make world class news for anyone involved in dog breeding or owning. Because of my long term interest you have already from time to time received links to some of Jean's work from me. Below are some excerpts and advice to me taken from my vet friend's personal email to me.

I strongly believe that this advice is correct and if you have any inkling yourself that it might be in/correct, please do some research of your own for your dog's sake. I believe I put one or more of my own dogs into jeopardy with the last vaccine I gave and I am now treating my 'best mate' for immune deficiency diseases. He has Cystinuria (the kidney's form rare cystine stones and no diet can correct this because it's a metabolic renal transport defect) and Hypothyroidism- (his immune system is progressively destroying his thyroid.)

Went to Jean Dodd's seminar today, very good! Should chat about it over a glass of red cos there’s a lot to go into, but basically hypothyroidism in dogs is immune mediated in 80% of cases and there are lots of immune mediated diseases which can be considered vaccination issues. She said that there is a genetic tendency to reaction, and it also occurs more often in dogs with dilute colouring, ie lots of white. Hmmm, made me think. She also said that hypothyroidism isn’t diagnosed as much as it is occurring.

Jean was saying you vaccinate dogs at 9 weeks and 14 weeks and that’s it. Or one shot before 12 weeks and one after. Nothing before 8 weeks. I believe there’s a class action going on in the US against vets because they vaccinate animals every year and it’s detrimental to them. I’ll be following Jean’s protocols with my dogs. Jean said yesterday that any dog with any vaccinosis reaction should never have another vaccination again!

PS. This is a new dog site set up. It's new and he could use some support if you care to join. Hope to see you in his forums. www.dogmunity.com

I attended Jean's seminar in Melbourne on Wednesday night. Friends had for some time now been trying to convince me about vaccinating less frequently but I guess because we are brain washed to believe we are doing the wrong thing and "bad parents" if we don't vaccinate them every year, I kept up with the regular vaccinations.

After listening to Jean talk I am now a convert. My 11 y.o. will not be vaccinated again, I will get titres on my 5 y.o. in a few years to see how he is progressing and the same with my 18 m.o.

The US has moved to a 3 yearly vaccination protocol but that news doesn't seem to have trickled to everyone over here just yet. I called 2 vets yesterday to ask about titre testing. The nurse at the first clinic didn't know what I was talking about and had to keep referring my queries to the vet until eventually the vet came on the line and said "we really do recommend you vaccinate your pet every year". The second vet knew exactly what I was talking about and gave me prices pretty quickly.

One problem I have is that I would like to attend obedience classes with my 5 y.o. but am struggling to find a club that accepts titre tests over vaccinations.

Hopefully it will become more recognised here over the next few years.

[Cavandra]

There are quite a few of us on this forum who have been bashing our heads against a brick wall on this subject for many years now.....it is very frustrating!!!

My pups are done with C3 twice and then get another one a year later, and never get vaccinated again ............ :p

[Andrea]

Thanks Colin for starting this topic

I ensure that all my own family's dogs have had at least one vaccination, they never get any more.

Over the years, I have had too many people tell me their sad stories regarding how their young dogs (most commonly between 6 -8 years of age) have been diagnosed with some type of immunity issue, or cancer, etc.

My dogs that are available for adoption are vaccinated on arrival (or desexing), and up until last year I revaccinated them if they were 'due'. This really was because it was too hard to explain that they really didnt need it, and vets wouldnt acknowledge my beliefs! I never vaccinate C5, as all dogs that come here either have it when they arrive or catch it off a recent arrival: their immunity is much better if they get it, and are helped to get over it!

Our old dog Rex (Border Collie X belgian shep), was vaccinated and desexed as a six month old in 1991, in February this year, I had him PTS as his poor old worn out body had just given up, and I really didnt have the time it took to tend to his calling me , especially with everything else I have to do. I know I have had parvo on our property several times, and kennel cough is here most of the time, if vaccinations were needed to keep him healthy why did old age get him in the end! His old heart (and his other major organs) were stronger than his body!

This year that has all changed and momentum is growing! All adopted dogs are still vaccinated when they arrive, especially if their history is known to me, as I do believe that ALL dogs do need that initial vaccination to kick in 'memory' to help them deal with these diseases initially. I tell people to do their 'homework' regarding vaccinations, just googling will give you several weeks worth of reading now :p , and I have a two page print out that I stick into their paperwork, so they have it in black and white and can read on the way home!

I personally cringe when I meet an old dog and they are still being vaccinated annually!! Thank god for the internet which most people can now access, because when I next see the people I have talked with and given one of my lectures, they thank me for making them aware.

What is a shame is you cant fault these people for doing what they have been TOLD is necessary in order for their dogs to stay 'healthy' when in reality they are VERY SLOWLY killing their babies!!

I want to see more old dogs living into their old age! especially when they are adopted from me!

[Andrea]

Oh I also have to add...

Litters of puppies should never have their first vaccination until they are totally weaned and OFF their mother, as Mum's immunity DOES NULL AND VOID the vaccination.

Pups that are in my care are vaccinated on weaning, and then not before 4 weeks after the initial should they be done again. For adopting families, I still recommend a booster after 12 months, but if they were MY own personal dog they would not get any past the two puppy shots.

This is all learnt from PAST EXPERIENCE on my behalf! anyone can come and meet my dogs, young or old, they are fighting fit !

[ness]

After reading all the information I don't want to vaccinate yearly but what choice do you have if you want to train and an obedience/agility club so that you can trial. They insist on seeing yearly vaccination certicates when you renew your membership each year. Any thoughts - what do other people do to get around the club situation???

I have a nearly 8 year old who has been vaccinated roughly every 14 or so months (was able to push it out to 18 months and still cover 2 years club membership) but she will be due again in October and I don't think I want to revaccinate her.

I also have a 12 week old BC pup who has had 1 C3 vaccination at the breeders and is booked in for a second C3 next week at 13 weeks.

[wylie]

For those of you who can still get to one of Jean Dodds seminar................GO!!

Jean is an amazing speaker and really tries hard to get everyone to understand what she is talking about.

Some quick notes from what i just took personally last night.........

Puppies that get colostrum in the first 36 hours have some natural immunity

Mothers milk after that time no longer carries antibodies into the puppy as they are absorbed by the GI tract

It is a falsehood that pups should not be vaccinated till 2 weeks after nursing.

Puppies can continue to nurse if the bitch feels like it for as long as they like

Killed vaccines are preferable over live Vaccines.

NO other pet in the household should ever be vaccinated with a Live vaccine whilst there are puppies on the premises due to shedding of the virus for the next 2 weeks

Light pigmented dogs are more likely to have utoimmune issues/Vaccinossis this includes blues/silvers/lilac/merles etc

I was very impressed with her knowledge and love for animals and her ability to give real evidence and studies which prove her theories.

Hopefully the CCCQ's Health Committee will be getting involved with thyroid testing thru Hemo pet and Aussies will also be able to contributing to the Canine Genome projects that they are involved in as well.

[Miranda]

Litters of puppies should never have their first vaccination until they are totally weaned and OFF their mother, as Mum's immunity DOES NULL AND VOID the vaccination.

You are misinformed Andrea, this is a common misconception. Neonates have the ability to absorb large protein antibody molecules through their intestinal wall ONLY during the first 24 hours of life. Once the puppy is a day old its digestive system matures and hydrolyses protein molecules thereby breaking them down into much smaller pieces and the puppy loses its ability to absorb them, so even if the dam continued to produce antibodies in her milk (which she doesn't) they wouldn't be available to the puppies. This is why 99.9% of maternal antibodies are produced during the first 24 hours post parturition, after this the amount of antibodies in ordinary bitch's milk is negligible.

Maternal antibodies may persist in a puppy giving varying degrees of protection, sometimes as long as 18 or 20 weeks, but all the antibodies were originally received during the first 24 hours after birth.

ETA I posted at the same time as wylie

Edited June 27, 2008 by Miranda

[nicestman77]

Thanks Colin for starting this topic

I ensure that all my own family's dogs have had at least one vaccination, they never get any more.

Over the years, I have had too many people tell me their sad stories regarding how their young dogs (most commonly between 6 -8 years of age) have been diagnosed with some type of immunity issue, or cancer, etc.

My dogs that are available for adoption are vaccinated on arrival (or desexing), and up until last year I revaccinated them if they were 'due'. This really was because it was too hard to explain that they really didnt need it, and vets wouldnt acknowledge my beliefs! I never vaccinate C5, as all dogs that come here either have it when they arrive or catch it off a recent arrival: their immunity is much better if they get it, and are helped to get over it!

Our old dog Rex (Border Collie X belgian shep), was vaccinated and desexed as a six month old in 1991, in February this year, I had him PTS as his poor old worn out body had just given up, and I really didnt have the time it took to tend to his calling me , especially with everything else I have to do. I know I have had parvo on our property several times, and kennel cough is here most of the time, if vaccinations were needed to keep him healthy why did old age get him in the end! His old heart (and his other major organs) were stronger than his body!

This year that has all changed and momentum is growing! All adopted dogs are still vaccinated when they arrive, especially if their history is known to me, as I do believe that ALL dogs do need that initial vaccination to kick in 'memory' to help them deal with these diseases initially. I tell people to do their 'homework' regarding vaccinations, just googling will give you several weeks worth of reading now , and I have a two page print out that I stick into their paperwork, so they have it in black and white and can read on the way home!

I personally cringe when I meet an old dog and they are still being vaccinated annually!! Thank god for the internet which most people can now access, because when I next see the people I have talked with and given one of my lectures, they thank me for making them aware.

What is a shame is you cant fault these people for doing what they have been TOLD is necessary in order for their dogs to stay 'healthy' when in reality they are VERY SLOWLY killing their babies!!

I want to see more old dogs living into their old age! especially when they are adopted from me!

Thanks Andrea

A vet at (All Creatures) Canberra

We were really close(friends), he told me not to vaccinate my dogs every year, it is a waste of money, there was a thing online once, I lost it, but I don't do my dogs now, only the once when they were very young,,nicestman77.

Edited June 27, 2008 by nicestman77

[pikespooches]

I am a rescue foster carer and have multitudes of puppies from pounds and other unknown sources. I vaccinate all newcomers but for the older dogs as a natural immunity is probably present anyway. I have vaccinated some pups and there has been an autoimmune reaction particularly Merles.

All my personal dogs have had the basic two some have had three puppy vaccinations but nothing more. I have one old girl that is 12 and has had nothing past the puppy vaccinations and she has never fallen ill. I have had parvo on my premises on more than one occasion and she is also exposed to the sheeding of live vaccines etc and still she has never had any issues. I do however take precautions to not spread the disease though and to clean up as well!

I am just now changing my foster puppies onto a killed parvac vaccine as they have enough to deal with let alone a live vaccine whilst trying to get over being dumped in a pound, change of diet and new bugs etc out there and wormers as well. I will see how they go, but I am confident they will all be fine. If they are still in care four weeks later they can have a C3 and if not and they have rehomed the new owners can discuss with their vet the best way to protect their dog!!

[Cavandra]

The 2 weeks weaned before vaccination was in fact a theory at one stage. The reason was that "they" knew that vaccinating at 6 weeks of age was having ZERO effect, and this was the theory of maternal antibodies interferring.......Now they realise that it the age & immune system , it has to be done after 8 weeks or it will not work.

[puggy_puggy]

I am still tossing and turning about the vaccination debate. It is the same in the human world about vaccinating our kids or not.

Are dogs that are not vaccinated frequently not getting sick because the majority of the population are vaccinated so there is less diseases to go around? I don't know.

As I foster rescues I am still vaccinating my dogs every year to be safe. I would love to Titer test in the future and then vaccinate if needed. Hopefully Titer testing will become more readily available in the future.

Recently I had a rescue that had come from the pound and later developed KC in his new home. Of my two dogs the girl that is due for her vaccination next month got a horribley snotty nose and cold whilst my boy got nothing, he is due for his vaccination at the end of the year.

[Andrea]

Hi Miranda

I appreciate your opinion, however, I have been there!

Five years ago now, I had a rescued bitch and her 4 week old litter in care, and received a couple of dogs (breeder dump) who three days after arrival ended up at the vet with Parvo. Dogs were in different parts of my property, and the new arrivals (both groups were on ceramic tiles) had not gotten anywhere near the litter. Totally paranoid and on my vets advice the pups were given two vaccinations 4 weeks apart prior to their being 12 weeks old. I still had the mum and pups were still feeding up to 10 weeks. By 14 weeks when they were no longer feeding they had to be raced to the vet and were treated for Parvo. I lost one and saved three after all three were at the vets for 8 days, and on drips for 7 of them.

May 2005, had Madonna and her brood of 13 4 week olds, arrive here from HP where they had spent a week in the pens. They were weaned at 8 weeks and vaccinated, and then revaccinated after the 12 weeks mark. I never lost a pup, even though they spent a very cold, full week at the pound

The exception being the Sharpei X pups (arrived here on the 25th Mar) I recently handraised, they were just over 6 weeks old and getting too big to keep crated.... they wanted to run around! so they were vaccinated at 6 weeks and had their second shots last week when they were also desexed at just over 12 weeks old.

I have not had any issues with litters being here since, and unvaccinated pups do not touch the ground here until a week past their first vaccination.

I am still tossing and turning about the vaccination debate. It is the same in the human world about vaccinating our kids or not.

Puppies AND children DO need those first vaccinations! By not vaccinating (children and puppies) at all, you are risking their health by leaving them exposed to catching those diseases 'full on'.

On the other hand, I believe that the Rubella needle given to Yr 7 girls compromised my oldest daughter, who 9 months after the needle was diagnosed a Type 1 diabetic. My personal dilemna is that my youngest girl is going into Yr 7 next year and I dont know what to do

[Cavandra]

I am still tossing and turning about the vaccination debate. It is the same in the human world about vaccinating our kids or not.

Are dogs that are not vaccinated frequently not getting sick because the majority of the population are vaccinated so there is less diseases to go around? I don't know.

As I foster rescues I am still vaccinating my dogs every year to be safe. I would love to Titer test in the future and then vaccinate if needed. Hopefully Titer testing will become more readily available in the future.

Recently I had a rescue that had come from the pound and later developed KC in his new home. Of my two dogs the girl that is due for her vaccination next month got a horribley snotty nose and cold whilst my boy got nothing, he is due for his vaccination at the end of the year.

Firstly it is not exactly a debate there is no evidence that supports annual vaccines.

The pet whisperer There are about 20 links at teh end of the page to others who understand how Vaccines work....Some extracts from this site....

Dogs' and cats' immune systems mature fully at 6 months. If a modified live virus vaccine is given after 6 months of age, it produces immunity, which is good for the life of the pet (i.e.,: canine distemper, parvo, feline distemper.) If another MLV vaccine is given a year later, the antibodies from the first vaccine neutralize the antigens of the second vaccine and there is little or no effect. The titer is not "boosted" nor are more memory cells induced. Not only are annual boosters for parvo and distemper unnecessary, they subject the pet to potential risks of allergic reactions and immune-mediated hemolytic anemia. There is no scientific documentation to back up label claims for annual administration of MLV vaccines. Puppies receive antibodies through their mother's milk. This natural protection can last 8 - 14 weeks. Puppies & kittens should NOT be vaccinated at LESS than 8 weeks. Maternal immunity will neutralize the vaccine and little protection (0-38%) will be produced. Vaccination at 6 weeks will, however, DELAY the timing of the first highly effective vaccine. Vaccinations given 2 weeks apart SUPPRESS rather than stimulate the immune system. A series of vaccinations is given starting at 8 weeks and given 3-4 weeks apart up to 16 weeks of age. Another vaccination given sometime after 6 months of age will provide LIFETIME IMMUNITY.

AND

Kennel Cough Vaccines. In 5,000 dogs studied in shelters, it made no difference which vaccines were given, as some dogs still got kennel cough. Upper respiratory infection is endemic in most pounds and shelters because of the crowding, poor ventilation, and variable hygiene. Kennel cough vaccines are basically useless, as natural immunization is ubiquitous.

Dr Charles Loops

Homeopathic veterinarians and other holistic practitioners have maintained for years that Vaccinations are doing harm. Aside from the immediate risk of vaccination side-effects, such as allergic reactions and anaphylactic shock, there are more compelling reasons to avoid vaccinations whenever possible. Vaccinations represent a major assault on the body's immune system. Attenuated organisms, or chemically killed viruses or bacteria, are injected directly into the blood stream via subcutaneous or intra-muscular injection, an unnatural route of infection. This profound insult avoids the body's first line of defenses, flooding the system with millions of organisms or viral particles, causing irregularities and abnormalities in the immune system which then manifest as chronic diseases in animals. This overall effect, while potentially protecting the individual from a specific, acute disease, is to weaken or create imbalance in the immune system so that underlying tendencies to diseases are brought to the surface. In other words, vaccinations represent a major stress. Following vaccinations, we often see chronic problems begin such as epilepsy, skin allergies, persistent upper respiratory infections, irritable bowel syndromes, auto-immune diseases and cancer, just to name a few.

What we now confront in our animal companions are generations of over-vaccinated animals, and these current offspring are suffering the penalty of this medical abuse. Where vaccinations have helped in eradicating or reducing the incidents of severe and acute disease processes, the result has been to plague us with more insidious, chronic diseases that are difficult to treat and often incurable and that lower that quality of life for many individuals and animals.

After more than twenty years of practicing veterinary medicine, I am observing chronic diseases that begin much earlier than before. Cancer before five years of age in dogs and cats was a rarity, but now it is not unusual to see fatal cancers in two and three year old animals. And the incidence or number of cases is definitely increasing. While poor breeding practices, poor commercial diets and other environmental factors play their part, I believe it is the practice of vaccinating an animal repeatedly, with multiple vaccinations throughout their lifespan that factors the most. We have genetically weakened our companions with this practice. A normal dog or cat living to twelve years of age will receive at least twenty and possibly thirty vaccinations during their lifetime. Fifteen or so of these shots will have four to seven disease fractions present in each vaccination.

In all of this, balance in nature has been lost to the pharmaceutical-medical complex's philosophy, propelled in great part by monetary factors, leading us to believe that all vaccinations are beneficial.

Dr Pitcairn You need to read it all, and read the part about Measles too , as that is what Distemper is.

[Bubbly]

I have a question. Why does Dr. Dodds recommend killed vaccines???

As to annual vaccinations

I've posted it before I think it's worth posting again

http://www.newvaccinationprotocols.com/

If you go through the whole slide presentation it gives you a good introduction to immunology and how vaccines work; then it goes through both dog and cat vaccines by disease.

I know it's an American vet and the recommendations are based on an American location, however the principles still apply.

First vaccine at no less that 8 weeks.

Parvo, Hep, and Distemper are core vaccines

Never use corona or lepto

anything else only in endemic areas: this means no lymes here

Parainfluensa and Bord only for dogs at high risk and even then it may not be worth it because of how many strains there are.

(At most, my words) boost at 14ish months, so as to vaccinate once after the 6 month mature immune system threshold

then you're done.

Titer tests:

Test that the body has sero-converted - in other words has made antibodies

This indicates memory cells have been made, so:

ANY positive titer means your pet has memory cells and IS protected

there is no such this as a positive titer that is to low!!!

If the titer is 0 after a positive titer before it only means the dog has not been challenged in the recent past, it does not mean your pup has no immunity - titers do not evaluate memory cells, the important part.

[J...]

Thanks for that titre information Bubbly. I've just had my dog tested, still waiting on results, but done by a vet who has never even heard of titre testing.

Worries me that they won't interpret the results correctly and will tell me that I need to vaccinate if the titre is "low", and worse won't give me a letter stating that her titre test is fine for club purposes unless I do vaccinate

[wylie]

Killed Vaccines are preferable as Live Vaccines have other junk in them.

That live junk in some dogs may cause adverse reactions.

Simple really

[Bubbly]

Killed Vaccines are preferable as Live Vaccines have other junk in them.

That live junk in some dogs may cause adverse reactions.

Simple really

So it's the adjuvent that she's really opposed to? Did she talk at all about cell mediated immunity from MLV vaccines vs. killed? Last I read killed did not stimulate cell mediated immunity- in which case immunity would not last for the life of the dog. Did she sat anything about new literature being out? ::mutters to self about wishing I could go to hear her speak::

[Bubbly]

Thanks for that titre information Bubbly. I've just had my dog tested, still waiting on results, but done by a vet who has never even heard of titre testing.

Worries me that they won't interpret the results correctly and will tell me that I need to vaccinate if the titre is "low", and worse won't give me a letter stating that her titre test is fine for club purposes unless I do vaccinate

Hey Jess

Go read the link it'll really help your understanding. You can even send it to your vet, there should be references at the end of the presentation to peer reviews literature he could go look up (if he wants to).

If the titer is "low" you can go walk your dog in some high risk areas or have him go play with puppies that have just been vaccinated. Then your dog will be exposed to the viruses and will mount an immune response creating antibodies, re-test, his titer levels will go up!!

Good luck!