How Common Is Medication Admin In Training?

[BJean]

as part of my positive training experiment i have found a vet. behaviourist for two of my dogs

i want to see if positive training works (i think it won't here, but i want to see how we go and the ethos, management systems behind it.) if my dogs are 'domesticated' and what i think about their instincts are wrong, I want a positive trainer to proove it with my dogs. in my trainer's 'positive only' world, choker chains are out and its flat collar or halti. (i'm opting for thick flat collar as i dont want dead dogs bcz a trainer was so sure about the ability of a dog to 'not pull' in a halti.)

anyway i explain the two dogs, and one of the things mentioned is medication

apparently my dogs are upset which is why they are aggro.

that doesn't sound right to me, why would the two most confident, outgoing of my dogs be upset?

why is a mental disorder, more plausible than rank dominance? or strong sense of territory?

(makes note to self to ask trainer)

anyway, i was wondering, how common is the administering of medication with DA dogs?

Edited June 23, 2008 by lilli

[Tonymc]

Lilli,using medication in my experience is not common or the right way to go.

Lilli,not wanting to be a wet blanket but I would have some big concerns about your supposed experiment.

Firstly I would query this Person's level of knowledge given them suggesting use of a Halti.

Secondly has this Person got any idea at all about the breed characteristics of your Breed, or have they just handled quite old Hounds raised around the Kitchen?

Lilli,I think your better having more faith in your own knowledge of your Breed which is a working breed and still carrying out its original purpose which to me is a breath of fresh air!!!!

I have to agree wholeheartedly the supposed cause of being upset is hogwash!!!!! Tony

[Jeff Jones]

I agree with Tony.

Slightly OT:

But I am amazed at how often vets and trainers are recomending people give there dogs sedatives(ACP) to curb natural behaviour.

[Paws4Thought]

I'm certainly not well versed in medicating dogs as a part of a training approach - but my gut feeling is that this is a no-go zone. The warning flags went up here. My first instinct would be to stay well away from this trainer - they don't sound experienced, flexible, or knowledgable. If medication is the first stop, thats a bit scary.

Just my 2 cents worth

[Janba]

I agree with Tony.

Slightly OT:

But I am amazed at how often vets and trainers are recomending people give there dogs sedatives(ACP) to curb natural behaviour.

ACP doesn't stop things like anxiety or aggression, it just makes it harder for the dog to react to them, but they still fell the same fear or anxiety they would without the ACP.

[Cosmolo]

I know of a number of very well respected veterinary behaviourists who recommend medication of some kind to almost every client they see- so its not uncommon.

[Staranais]

I know of a number of very well respected veterinary behaviourists who recommend medication of some kind to almost every client they see- so its not uncommon.

Vets get only a little bit of education about canine behaviour problems. But we get heaps of training about drugs. And you know what they say... "if the only tool in your toolbox is a hammer, everything will look like a nail..."

Not saying that drugs can't be a useful tool for some severe behavioural issues, but I'd certainly be concerned with anyone recommending drugs as a first option.

JMO.

[petmezz]

I know of a number of very well respected veterinary behaviourists who recommend medication of some kind to almost every client they see- so its not uncommon.

Vets get only a little bit of education about canine behaviour problems. But we get heaps of training about drugs. And you know what they say... "if the only tool in your toolbox is a hammer, everything will look like a nail..."

Not saying that drugs can't be a useful tool for some severe behavioural issues, but I'd certainly be concerned with anyone recommending drugs as a first option.

JMO.

A Veterinary Behaviourist is a vet who has chosen to undertake ferther training in the science of animal behaviour and they have superiour knowlage of what chemical to use on say an Obsesive dog, or an agressive dog or any other seriouse problem. many of these drugs are used in the human world and are slowly being tested and incorporated for our dogs.

as with all medical things a vet can and dose choose to go in spcific specalised feldes, i recently asked a veterinary Behaviourist what would he recomend for an ichy dog............. his reply was something like "i practice the science of behaviour identfication and treatment i wouldn't know what to recomend except go and see your local vet who chose to work that feild"

i agree that vets shouldn't be giving out advice on behaviour problems given their such little training, they should be refering to trained people these cases. however in saying that i will send a lot of my clients to the vet for tests and a check up as some times unusual behaviour is relaed to a phisical problem with the dog (child placed pencil down dogs ear and dog suddnly dosn't like child and growls at child for instance).

both general pratice vets (small animal vets) and veterinary behaviourist have a big role to fill in determaning problems and they should not be confused with one and other

[Staranais]

A Veterinary Behaviourist is a vet who has chosen to undertake ferther training in the science of animal behaviour and they have superiour knowlage of what chemical to use on say an Obsesive dog, or an agressive dog or any other seriouse problem.

Well yes, there are chemicals you can use for all of these problems. But I personally don't believe that drugs should be the first port of call for any behavioural problem, no matter how qualified the person doing the prescribing.

And although you're right that a veterinary behaviourist has done a lot more study in their chosen field than most regular vets, in my experience they still don't necessarily have a great breadth of knowledge. Many seem to just toe the "purely positive" Karen Overall party line without having fully investigated other methods - for example, last semester I sat through a lecture from a qualified veterinary behaviourist who told us quite melodramatically that prong collars are unnecessary and cruel, and e-collars are only useful for delivering harsh shocks as positive punishment, both of which conflict directly with my personal experience.

She was a nice lady, and probably a good vet, but I certainly wouldn't let her or anyone else prescribe drugs to alter the behaviour of my dog until I'd investigated all the other options out there.

Edited June 24, 2008 by Amhailte

[alanglen]

training experiment?

We can assure you easily that in it's place positive training works brilliantly, as does medication when warranted. If your breed and knowledge says different to that, then why would you experiment with your dogs?

[BJean]

Lilli,using medication in my experience is not common or the right way to go.

Lilli,not wanting to be a wet blanket but I would have some big concerns about your supposed experiment.

Firstly I would query this Person's level of knowledge given them suggesting use of a Halti.

Secondly has this Person got any idea at all about the breed characteristics of your Breed, or have they just handled quite old Hounds raised around the Kitchen?

Lilli,I think your better having more faith in your own knowledge of your Breed which is a working breed and still carrying out its original purpose which to me is a breath of fresh air!!!!

I have to agree wholeheartedly the supposed cause of being upset is hogwash!!!!! Tony

Thanks Tony, I didn't think it was

although perhaps that what happens to all the dogs that don't fit the norm -

they dumb down their instincts with medication...

the person comes very highly recommended and much experience working with aggression -

they are aware of the dog's breed - but apparently breed is not so important.

i'm very sceptical - but i don't like the +ve brandish (not upheld by all +ve trainers), that it suits all dogs and using corrections are cruel, damaging the relationship between dog and owner: +ve training is the modern advanced intelligent technique, use of choke chains is antiquated and uncouth.

nb: my dogs will not be receiving any medication - they are normal for their breed.

Edited June 24, 2008 by lilli

[BJean]

training experiment?

We can assure you easily that in it's place positive training works brilliantly, as does medication when warranted. If your breed and knowledge says different to that, then why would you experiment with your dogs?

bcz +ve training is supposed to work for all dogs.

its the intelligent, more advanced, training technique -

corrrections are bad, they in fact manifest the unwanted behaviour.

the theory of dominance is bunk and irrelevant - physical correction of your dog is backward and cruel.

so either I am wrong with my choke chain, or +ve training espousal should be edited -

like all training techniques' ethos -

+ve training doesn't suit all dogs, just some.

i probably haven't given +ve training a go, I've let breed dictate how / what my dog can and can't do -

this is what I hear if I say reward based training isn't effective on some of my dogs.

I can't see how the +ve training ethos explains my dogs' behjaviour -

but maybe a +ve expert can.

Edited June 24, 2008 by lilli

[Kavik]

+ve training works great if, like most dogs, your dog values something you can work with for its reward - food, toys, pats, praise etc. If your dog is not excited by any of these (and from what I've read LGDs are difficult to motivate this way) I don't know how you are supposed to use it!

[Jigsaw]

Can you not use a half-slip/martingale collar on the dogs, this wouldn't slip over their heads? Or is that out completely as well with the +ve trainer? There are variations even within the +ve training world on what you can and can't do. Like most things there is a wide spectrum of views. Ask this trainer a bit more about his training theory and how he expects it to work for you and your dogs. Ask him for a guideline as to what you can expect in changes in behaviour with the drugs and with the training. How long will you need to keep them on the drugs too? As Kavik said the dog has to be motivated too for it to work.

[Kelpie-i]

We have become a society of drug-popping maniacs. So much so that we feel the need to prescribe drugs to all dogs who display behaviours that come quite naturally to them....sad

I admit that there are certain situations where drugs can assist in the rehabilitation of a dog but these are not very common IMO.

lilli, I totally agree with Tonymc's comments. Caveat Emptor!!

[sas]

My personal experience with drugging a dog isn't positive, I put him down 3 months later as his condition became worse, he was a complete nut job by the end of the 3 months of prozac and beta blockers whilst behaviour modifcation training was happening for DA.

[Tonymc]

Exactly SAS, I have seen a couple of similiar disasters!!!! Tony

[SkySoaringMagpie]

I think medication will be a common option presented if you go to a vet behaviourist. Medication is a common tool for a vet to use and people reach for tools that are familiar to them when faced with a problem to solve.

I don't think a vet behaviourist gives you a basis on which to judge positive training. In fact, no one trainer can give you a basis on which to judge positive training because they all have their fallibilities and quirks, just as primarily correction based trainers do.

If you are out to "test" a positive only handler to test positive training you will definitely get the answer you expect. With any dog training I think it is better to test the theory with your own dogs yourself, with some expert advice to make sure you're executing the theory correctly so it's a decent test. I would not ask a correction based trainer or a positive only trainer to carry the can for a whole set of theory. No-one is perfect and everyone stuffs up and runs into dogs they can't handle. I'd love to see what ends up on the cutting room floor of all those animal training shows...

I personally can't stand haltis, I think they are Grade A aversives. While many positive-identified handlers use them, I don't consider them positive, so I don't associate them with positive training.

I think positive training has a great deal to offer. I think one of its greatest strengths is that when done properly it demands human self-examination. Ultimately I think positive training asks the question "is there a better way to do this?". Sometimes the answer is no, but that doesn't make invalid the majority of times when the answer is yes.

[persephone]

How is medicating a dog with ancient instincts a good thing ?

Whatever meds are given.. these instincts will still be there once the medication is stopped.