VACCINATIONS

[aatainc]

Well I personally have been vaccinated for Whooping Cough and Measles and I have had serious cases of both diseases. Also, I had identical symptoms to German Measles, 3 days after I had the vaccine for it. So basically, I think my body reacts badly to vaccines!!

My old border collie also got Kennel cough despite being vaccinated for it only one month earlier.

We give all pups the c3 and the adults the c5. I agree with showdog though, sometimes those that have had more vaccines get more illnesses!

I would choose to use c4 if I could but ours comes in c3 all in one and parainfluenza and bordatella are both together. So it's all or none.

[Staff'n'Toller]

An interesting thread me thinks

You've got me hunting out the Veterinary Texts......

Yes it is correct that being Vacc'd against KC doesn't guarantee your dog won't get it, my understanding is that it will not be half as bad. In an unvaccinated, immune compromised dog, KC could be very serious.

Coronavirus: Single strand RNA virus, associated with feline infectious peritonitis and with diarrhoea in dogs.

Leptospira canicola: Aerobic spirochaetal bacterium that can penetrate mucosal surfaces or areas of damaged skin; the kidney is the predilection site for the organsim where it causes an acute interstitial nephritis; clinical signs include depression, vomiting, renal pain and oliguria(small production of urine indicitave of renal damage).....most animals will respond successfully to antibiotics and supportive fluid therapy.....now inculded in routine dog vaccinations and offer good protection. Taken from 'Dictionary of Veterinary Nursing' DR Lane and S Guthrie.

I had a lecture with some guys from a vaccine company last year and my understanding is that coronavirus is closely linked/or believed to be another strain of parvo...something to ponder.

But I was also told that Leptospirosis is not common here in Australia and DON'T QUOTE ME OK! but that the figures of diagnosis has been unchanged for a number of years, and generally is similar to the numbers of humans diagnosed with it approx. 4-5 persons each year.

Kind Regards,

Mel. :D

[Elise]

I couldn't vaccinate my kids for whooping cough (pertusis) as ALL the kids were allergic to it. The doctor said the risk of them getting kennel cough were minimal prepared to the risk of the reactions they got to pertusis.

He told me that if ever the kids come down with a cough (any cough) to have it investigated straight away.

Then in 1995/6, they brought in a new vaccine for pertusis and I took the kids and had them done (no reactions).

There is a boy near where I live (he's always in the paper) he ended up unable to walk, see, stand, go to school and had to spend time in a wheel chair and wear welding goggles after being vaccinated for meningacochal sp?

Some people like our furkids react different to different vaccines.

And yes, just because you are vaccinated for something doesn't mean you wont get it. Let's take the fluvaccine....the elderly are encouraged to have it at the onset of winter before the epidemic breaks out and yet, they still get the flu (probably not as bad if they weren't vaccinated for it).

[greyhoundangel]

What I have heard from everyone who has the flu vaccine is that yes, of course they still get the flu but it is no where near as bad as if they didn't have the vaccine...

I have a lowered immune system and constantly get the flu throughout the year, sometimes symptons last for more than two months...I have been urged by many people to take this vaccine, and I think I will be a fool not to do so next year...

I think we need to remember exactly what the word 'vaccine' means:

vaccine - immunogen consisting of a suspension of weakened or dead pathogenic cells injected in order to stimulate the production of antibodies

Mel

[iceni]

A few pointers about human flu vaccines (I would NEVER have one or advocate them) because of the time taken to produce the vaccine it's usually the previous years flu that the vaccine will protect against. Also like all viruses, flu viruses MUTATE and we cannot keep up with the rate of mutation. The vaccine will only protect against the strains that are in the vaccine so how anybody can quantify "I didn't get it as bad" is beyond me, chances are they caught another strain of the common cold, you will know when you have the flu as opposed to a cold that everyone thinks is the flu - in bed for days and would rather be dead. However some people do become ill after the flu shot, I have seen permanent urticaria (itchy rash), death from anaphylaxis (shock), bronchial asthma and pulmonary emboli (blood clots in lungs) as complications of having a flu jab. Inject myself with an attenuated virus? No way! I would rather take my chances with the flu. :D

[Sue]

You forgot one possible answer in your survey. "Don't vaccinate at all"

I prefer to build my dogs immune system by good raw diet, exercise, basic hygiene principles and care.

I accept that my dogs may contract a disease - and am prepared for that. In five years of not vaccinating and regulary showing, and walking my dogs in public daily, the worst they have had is a cold (not kennel cough).

Having one vaccine damaged dog to live with is enough. Anyone that wants to experience the trails of living with a mentally impaired, hyperactive, compulsive spinner can borrow him for a week! :D

I believe vaccination should not be thought of as common place. It is a medical preocedure and should be carefully considered.

[Elise]

Doesn't the canine controlling body require dogs to be vaccinated prior to bringing them to show grounds? (I'd have to check the ruling on that)

[Elise]

Every "official" show entry form states:

I certify that this exhibit has not within the said period of three months been in a kennel affected with Distemper, Canine Hepatitis, Parvo virus or any other contagious disease and that during the last twelve months prior to the date of this Show the dog was vaccinated.

[Sue]

Not in NZ. :D

I should have made it clear that I'm not in Oz, sorry. It is only obedience that still enforces the yearly vaccination of animals.

[WhiteLight]

My dogs are due for the vaccs. However I am thinking of having the Titer test done to see if it is required as there immune systems seems to go down for months after the injections.

I had queried this on the forum before and it was mentioned more than once mainly by the breeders that a Titer test will show the amounts of anti-bodies in the bloodstream to see if they need a booster.

[iceni]

Immune mediated responses are "built" by exposure to pathogens not by diet and exercise. Parvo can still kill, Distemper can still kill and the only way get an immunity to those two known killers is to be exposed to them - guess you have just been very lucky, hope your luck holds out. Animals need to be fit and healthy regardless as illness drains all body systems.

Titres are a great idea. We have heard of lots of cases of saints dying from Cardiomyopathy after the age of six at about 3 weeks post annual vaccination. Hereditary CM strikes between the ages of three and four generally. We have stopped vaccinating after our oldies turn six. They generally don't go off the property as they have an acre to play on.

Research is now showing that vaccinations are not all they are cracked up to be both human and veterinary. My Mantoux test at aged 28 had a 20mm response, no one can tell me if I have been exposed to TB in my job or whether it was the TB vacc I had at the age of 15 that caused the reaction :D

[Rappie]

My own opinion is that the core vaccinations ie. C3 should be given as the series to puppies and then a booster a year later and continue as appropriate whether it be never, yearly, every 3 years of whatever.

Distemper, infectious hepatitss and parvovirus are still existent and can cause disease - however the incidence of disease for at least the first two is virtually zero. This isn't because the pathogens have disappeared or been eradicated, rather that there is, and has been for some time a sufficient proportion of vaccinated individuals in a population to prevent unprotected individuals from being exposed. Even with parvo, the incidence of disease in vaccinated animals is low - but the disease itself in unvaccinated animals is often fatal.

I don't think the kennel cough component or leptospirosis / coronavirus vaccines are neccessary unless you are trying to reduce transmission of disease in a population eg. a dog show, kennels or there is a known risk, such as Lepto in northern Australia.

I also read on a veterinarian only discussion board that there is suggestion that titres, while showing antibody levels, do little to accurately determine the efficacy of response to an immune challenge. I suppose its a good direction to head but I would be hesitant to think of it as a complete alternative to vaccination.

[aatainc]

yes, immune mediated responses are built by exposure to pathogens but surely you acknowledge that a good diet and appropriate exercise are going to strengthen the dogs' immune system in general?

I think the idea is that if the dog has a strong system it will be better able to make antibodies quickly if it is exposed to the disease and to fight that disease accordingly.

If you think that diet and exercise play no part in helping to strengthen the immune system that's like saying that someone with immune suppression should just eat macca's and coke all day and sit in front of the tv - because a healthier lifestyle wouldn't help.

Of course it does!! The healthier the dog (or person) is in general will help determine how well they resist infection. Diet and exercise are very important for general health, so therefore there is a direct link.

[iceni]

I did acknowledge that in the first paragraph, "animals need to be fit and healthy regardless". Some antibodies are not made in time to stop an animal from dying, depending on the pathogen in question, thats why there are vaccinations. Also the immune system often requires help in form of antibiotics for bacterial infections.

I was talking about immune mediated responses not the immune system in its entirety, esp when lethal pathogens are concerned. Again an animal needs to be fit and healthy.

Four times you have stated a good diet is important, I agreed with you so I am not sure what your point is ?

[mavmon]

This is from another list I am on & relevant to this thread. Thought some may be interested in it.

Cheers

> Subject: New Vaccine Protocol Accepted by all 27 Vet Schools

> >

> > NEW!!! VACCINATION PROTOCOL

> > by Dr. Jean Dodd

> > ------------------------------------------------------------

> > All of the 27 Vet

> > Universities in the US have

> > followed the immunization protocol as suggested by Dr. Dodd for

> > years. All of these Hospitals will be changing their Vaccination

> > Programs apparently. This is welcome news and you should print this

> > out and take

> > it with you to your Vet should you need reinforcement against

> > over-vaccination.

>

> > VACCINATION NEWSFLASH [CIMDA support] RE; J DODDS

> > VACCINE PROTOCOL

> > I would like to make you aware that all 27

> > veterinary

> > schools in North America are in the process of changing

> > their protocols

> > for vaccinating dogs and cats. Some of this information

> > will present an

> > ethical & economic challenge to Vets, and there will be

> > skeptics. Some

> > organizations have come up with a political compromise suggesting

> > vaccinations every 3 years to appease those who fear loss

> > of income vs.

> > those concerned about potential side effects. Politics,

> > traditions, or

> > the doctors economic well-being should not be a factor in a medical

> > decision.

> >

> > NEW PRINCIPLES OF IMMUNOLOGY

> > Dogs and cats immune systems mature fully at 6 months. If a modified

> > live virus vaccine is given after 6 months of age, it produces

> > immunity, which is good for the life of the pet (i.e.: canine

> > distemper, parvo,

> > feline distemper). If another MLV vaccine is given a year later, the

> > antibodies from the first vaccine neutralize the antigens

> > of the second

> > vaccine and there is little or no effect. The titer is not

> > "boosted" nor

> > are more memory cells induced. Not only are annual boosters

> > for parvo

> > and distemper unnecessary, they subject the pet to

> > potential risks of

> > allergic reactions and immune-mediated haemolytic anemia.

> > There is no

> > scientific documentation to back up label claims for annual

> > administration of MLV vaccines. Puppies receive antibodies

> > through their

> > mothers milk. This natural protection can last 8 - 14

> > weeks. Puppies &

> > kittens should NOT be vaccinated at LESS than 8 weeks.

> > Maternal immunity

> > will neutralize the vaccine and little protection (0-38%) will be

> > produced. Vaccination at 6 weeks will, however, DELAY the

> > timing of the

> > first highly effective vaccine. Vaccinations given 2 weeks apart

> > SUPPRESS rather than stimulate the immune system. A series of

> > vaccinations is given starting at 8 weeks and given 3-4

> > weeks apart up

> > to 16 weeks of age. Another vaccination given sometime

> > after 6 months of

> > age (usually at l year 4 mo) will provide LIFETIME IMMUNITY.

[McGuinessMagee]

China gets an annual C4. Our vet says that he treats so many dogs for kennel cough despite their being vaccinated with C5 that he considers the extra expense a waste of money. The boarding kennel we use doesn't require C5, so we don't pay the extra. She also gets an injection for heartworm at the same time.

Kylie

[Guest katiea40]

I was just wondering how do you know if you dog has kennel cough and how serious is it?

My mother has never vacc her dogs and all of them have lived a healthy life with nothing wrong with them through out that time.

[Poppy's mum]

For what it's worth - a friend whose a vet student said vaccinations last 2 years or more but the vet likes to get you in annually to check teeth and general wellbeing. In the States they vaccinate 2 yearly. So he said.

When Ginger came to me with kennel cough, Fred never got it at all. He had C5. They shared the same water bowl and she licked him (including his mouth) when playing. Vet said he couldn't rule it out, though but luckily Fred never got it.

[Leenie]

>>The recommendations are that all dogs and cats should receive at least the initial course and first yearly booster of the core vaccines (ie. C3). >>Best to make the decision on further vaccines after discussion with your vet.

I think this is pretty good advice!

I usually recommend C3 at 12 weeks and again one year later and that's it. If there is concern get your vet to do a titer test to check antibodies to ensure the vaccine is still in the system (and it usually is!)

I believe that lots of animals are seriously over vaccinated and in many ways I feel that taking your dog to the vet for 5 vaccines at once (eg. C5) every year is like taking your child to the doctor every year for a combination vaccine of chicken pox, measles, tetanus, whooping cough, hepatitis and meningococcal. No one in their RIGHT MIND would do that. Imagine rocking up to your GP and saying "we're here for our H6". Not going to happen so why do it to your pet?

Just my opinion. I know it's a controversal topic and hope I don't offend anyone but I think it's the way to go.

[Staffwild]

We only vaccinate our puppies with C4.