Tracking And Mantrialing

[oceanaussi]

Quentin is now 5 months old and from day 1 we did retrieving and tracking and he enjoys it very much and becomes better each day. I also would like to do mantrialing with him but have a few questions in regards to that:

Firstly, will I confuse the dog when we do both tracking and mantrialing?

Second, any idea on how I can start on mantrialing??? We were supposed to go to a course next month but it has been cancelled. I would appreciate any ideas!

Does anyone know about some books or similar about mantrialing? I've got great books on tracking but so far was unable to find anything on mantrialing.

Thanks!

[Kavik]

I'm not sure what the differences are between tracking and mantrailing. Maybe centitout can help - has bloodhounds and does mantrailing with them.

[squeak]

I am no expert, so more than happy to be corrected by those who are more knowledgeable.

My understanding is that mantrailling is where a dog finds a person by the quickest means - usually by air scenting. If for some reason the dog cannot air scent at a particular point, they will track until the find the air scent again. Whereas tracking is following the scent of the footprints along the ground.

At the NDTF course, we were told that you could teach a tracking to to trail, but not vice versa (ie., you cannot teach a trailling dog to track). The reason that we were given was that once you have taught a dog to air scent, they will use this as the "default" as it is the quickest means of getting to the "quarry".

Very happy to hear input from other people.

[Kavik]

So mantrailing is like SAR? I thought mantrailing was still ground scenting? And SAR air scenting. Unless it is just wording.

[oceanaussi]

What's SAR?

Yes, tracking is nose on the ground following a track, while mantrialling is nose in the air and scent selective. They can eliminate all other scent contamination and can give you a direction of travel, hence giving valuable information to a search or case.

A correctly trained scent selective dog can easily track persons on a bike or motorcycle or in a motor vehicle.

With the latest available technology, scent evidence can be taken from a crime scene without touching or destroying other forensic material. Any objects touched by humans can be utilised as a scent to start the dog – even spent cartridges out of a firearm.

[squeak]

What's SAR?

Search & Rescue????

[oceanaussi]

What's SAR?

Search & Rescue????

Of course!

[Kavik]

Yeah Search and Rescue

[Arya]

Hi Everyone,

Here's a topic where i might be able to offer some help Tracking... when talking true ground tracking you are talking about the dog following a combination of personal scent of the tracklayer and ground scent from crushed ground where the tracklayer has walked. A really good, accurate tracker in Schutzhund sticks right on the track, nose to the ground, does not air scent and the idea is not to cast about but to stick straight. In practice, in ANKC tracking the dog can be taught like this but from what I've seen and what I've experienced with my own dog, who will track both disciplines, the dog air scents to a degree and casts about to a degree too.

I personally would not try to teach a dog I wanted to track well to man trail. I also would think that although it is possible to teach a man trailing dog to ground scent, the default when the dog is drivey and excited on the track would be to lift the head and air scent, gather personal scent from the surrounds not just the track.

My advice: depending on what you want to do with your dog, if you want to go for tracking titles ever, stick to proper tracking and forget man trailing. Or teach man trailing just for fun and not worry if you are never going to want to learn to track accurately.

All good and all good fun, whichever way you do it!!!

[oceanaussi]

Thanks Arya! Hm, that's a hard one. I would have loved to get some tracking titles with him but my partner wants to use him for mantrialing with his job. Not sure what to do now...

[Arya]

Thanks Arya! Hm, that's a hard one. I would have loved to get some tracking titles with him but my partner wants to use him for mantrialing with his job. Not sure what to do now...

Hey why not teach him to track and he'll still find the person at the end of the track. Does your partner work in security? A tracker dog will find a person no worries and as I said, out on the track in ANKC they spend a certain amount of time casting about and air scenting anyway. It is not as precise as Schutzhund tracking. Check out some YouTube videos of Sch. tracking and see if you can find others and you will see what I mean. It all depends on what your partner wants to use the dog for I guess.

[oceanaussi]

He's a policeman and wants to use Quentin to find missing people in the bush.

[Jeff Jones]

A correctly trained scent selective dog can easily track persons on a bike or motorcycle or in a motor vehicle.

on a bike maybe, but highly unlikely over any length of distance.

Training a dog to track a motorcycle or car = impossible.

[Arya]

Jeff, maybe you can answer this better? When I teach my dog to track I teach her to track Schutzhund style, and she does this 'reasonably' well. She is getting better. But when I put her on an ANKC track out in the bush she does a lot more casting about and moves a lot faster and goes into a different style always but still gets there just not beautifully accurately the way Sch. should be.

My thoughts would be teach the dog to track, not man trail. Then the dog will still find the person at the end of the track by using ground scent to a fuller advantage and still air scent. A better search dog, in other words. Just a thought.

Maybe you could also look up the Swiss Search and Rescue dog teams. I don't know a lot about them but believe they do this sort of work. Think that's what they are called. They are in Australia.

Man trailling is big with law enforcement bloodhounds from the little I know of it :rolleyes:

[Jeff Jones]

I think you and squeak have answered the questions. A good book with loads of information is Scent and the Scenting Dog: William G. Syrotuck

The reason why Schutzhund dogs look more accurate whilst tracking is because they are only following the scent of the crushed vegetation. They do not follow the scent from the person on the ground.

[oceanaussi]

I think you and squeak have answered the questions. A good book with loads of information is Scent and the Scenting Dog: William G. Syrotuck

The reason why Schutzhund dogs look more accurate whilst tracking is because they are only following the scent of the crushed vegetation. They do not follow the scent from the person on the ground.

Thanks for the advice! Will get the book straight away! I've got heaps of good tracking books but none are on scenting.

Just to follow up as I'm new to this: Isn't it right when I do tracking the dog follow s the scent of the article while when he's mantrialing he follows the crushed vegetation?

[kamukeli]

The reason why Schutzhund dogs look more accurate whilst tracking is because they are only following the scent of the crushed vegetation. They do not follow the scent from the person on the ground.

Spot on about the crushed vegetation Jeff but IMO they are also following the scent of the dead skin a person drops while walking so it is a combination of the two.

[kamukeli]

Sorry forgot to add that I believe it is both because Sch dogs are able to indicate articles dropped buy the track layer.

Therefore they must have the scent of the track layer to be able to distinguish the article.

[Arya]

Sorry forgot to add that I believe it is both because Sch dogs are able to indicate articles dropped buy the track layer.

Therefore they must have the scent of the track layer to be able to distinguish the article.

Hang on, in ANKC tracking the dogs must also indicate articles dropped by the track layer. They are generally socks, carried about or worn by the track layer. There is one at the start post and then progressively, as tracks get harder for the titles, a number on the track. The dog must indicate a certain number. This can be done by dropping on the article, as in Sch. or by simply pausing and sniffing it.

In Sch. how is the dog able NOT to follow personal scent? Personal scent molecules must be present on the track, for the dog to identify the articles, unless it is a known track layer. Plus, a certain number of personal scent molecules would be present for some time, even after the initial fifteen minutes or so when they are strongest.

Here's what I think. I think it's the way the dogs are taught and the cues the dog picks up at the commencement of the track. Sch. for instance, starts to one side of the start flag. In ANKC, the track starts in front of the start pole. The dog will read this cue. The whole atmosphere is different too. So they just go bugger this, I will air scent too. it is just my guess but I can't explain it other way. I don't think it can be explained by lack of personal scent. In ANKC Track 6 the track is aged for minimum 90 minutes max 180 minutes so there isn't a lot of personal scent left. What do others think? Could it be the cues the dog receives that changes the way it tracks, the terrain, what??? It is interesting!

[Arya]

Also, when a dog is man trailling, doesn't it gather scent from every available source - air (wind), surrounding vegetation like bushes, any objects going, water molecules in the area, ground scent/crushed vegetation and bugs under the footprints and also, personal scent molecules left along the trail? Not just crushed ground. :rolleyes: (this is a great topic!)