Crate Training Again

[CBL]

OK guys - so Oscar still hates his crate. I am home all this week so I would love to get the howling down to a minimum if possible

The general consensus is just to let him howl, but should I be sticking to some sort of timetable e.g. in for 5 mins at a time to start off with? He basically gets himself so worked up that I think he struggles to calm himself down. I have put a kong, toys and a pigs ear in there and the distractions only last for a couple of minutes or so.

Should I move the crate so it is in the room with me initially or will that make it worse? We have thought about moving it to a different area of the house were we can put some baby gates up too, which will give him a bigger area to play in, but my gut feeling is it is the companionship that he is demanding.

He is still just a baby I know but the longer I leave it the worse it is going to get and I will end up with a dog with major separation anxiety problems

[Luke W]

OK guys - so Oscar still hates his crate. I am home all this week so I would love to get the howling down to a minimum if possible

The general consensus is just to let him howl, but should I be sticking to some sort of timetable e.g. in for 5 mins at a time to start off with? He basically gets himself so worked up that I think he struggles to calm himself down. I have put a kong, toys and a pigs ear in there and the distractions only last for a couple of minutes or so.

Should I move the crate so it is in the room with me initially or will that make it worse? We have thought about moving it to a different area of the house were we can put some baby gates up too, which will give him a bigger area to play in, but my gut feeling is it is the companionship that he is demanding.

He is still just a baby I know but the longer I leave it the worse it is going to get and I will end up with a dog with major separation anxiety problems

What worked for me...your mileage may vary.

- His crate is in the same room as I am during the day. It's my 'home-office'.

- The first night he slept in his crate he howled and howled. I left him locked in his crate but moved the crate to the hallway outside our bedroom. He quickly settled. The oinly time he cried at night was when he wanted to relieve himself. He now sleeps the night though (he's 3.5 months old now).

A timetable is a good idea.

I'd start at even less than 5 minutes.

Stand outside the door, out of site and very, very quiet. You need to be able to get to him quickly the minute he's quiet. He must not know you are outsid ethe door though. Crucial.

If he's quiet for 15 seconds, quickly slip in, click/treat and a low key "Good Dog" and walk out again.

He'll start to cry...If he's quiet for 15 seconds, quickly slip in, click/treat and a low key "Good Dog" and walk out again.

He'll start to cry...If he's quiet for 15 seconds, quickly slip in, click/treat and a low key "Good Dog" and walk out again.

He'll start to cry...If he's quiet for 15 seconds, quickly slip in, click/treat and a low key "Good Dog" and walk out again.

He'll start to cry...If he's quiet for 15 seconds, quickly slip in, click/treat and a low key "Good Dog" and walk out again.

etc

He'll tend to stop crying more quickly. When he does, increase the requirement to 30 seconds. Repeats, repeat, repeat.

Then increase the requirement to 1 minute.

Gradually build up to 5 minutes. By which time he'll be cured.

I hope this helps.

[Luke W]

PS - My pup still sometimes (only sometimes) howls when I leave the house (he knows the sound of me going out the front door)...but only for 30 seconds at most. Then he settles. I can move to other partsof the house no problem.

He's quietly sitting in his pen at the moment, chewing on a new toy. We've just finished a 5 minute tug toy play session.

[CBL]

Thanks Luke W - they sound like good tips. He is happily playing in his bed next to me now (not in his crate). Think I will have to move the crate in here too

[Jigsaw]

I find that covering the crate so the dog can't see out sometimes helps my dog settle much more quickly than when she can see what's happening. I just use some towels. I don't do it all the time just times I really want her to settle like at night. Her crate is in our family room and sometimes she'll bark in her crate if we're in the room - I do my best to ignore it and she usually settles down in a few minutes. If it does go on I let her out and toilet her (which somehow sometimes takes sometime!) and then see if she'll settle out of the crate maybe with a pig's ear on her mat for a little while before trying again. But I don't make a fuss of her during this time it's "quiet time, settle time". Good luck.

[Miranda]

Is there any reason why the puppy can't be outside during the day? Puppies get bored very quickly in crates and are actually far better off outside if your yard is secure. Even an outside run would be preferable, at least they can see, smell and hear things and if the run is a fair size there's room to play as well.

I only crate my dogs at night, they'd go nuts left in a crate for long periods during the day.

[CBL]

Is there any reason why the puppy can't be outside during the day? Puppies get bored very quickly in crates and are actually far better off outside if your yard is secure. Even an outside run would be preferable, at least they can see, smell and hear things and if the run is a fair size there's room to play as well.

I only crate my dogs at night, they'd go nuts left in a crate for long periods during the day.

He's only a teeny tiny iggie and I think still too small for outside. The yard isn't tiny puppy proof yet though we are in the process of fixing it up - it is safe for Patch but there are some small gaps where Oscar could escape. We are going to section off an area of the yard for each of them shortly.

[Miranda]

Is there any reason why the puppy can't be outside during the day? Puppies get bored very quickly in crates and are actually far better off outside if your yard is secure. Even an outside run would be preferable, at least they can see, smell and hear things and if the run is a fair size there's room to play as well.

I only crate my dogs at night, they'd go nuts left in a crate for long periods during the day.

He's only a teeny tiny iggie and I think still too small for outside. The yard isn't tiny puppy proof yet though we are in the process of fixing it up - it is safe for Patch but there are some small gaps where Oscar could escape. We are going to section off an area of the yard for each of them shortly.

Oh ok :cool:

[Luke W]

Is there any reason why the puppy can't be outside during the day? Puppies get bored very quickly in crates and are actually far better off outside if your yard is secure. Even an outside run would be preferable, at least they can see, smell and hear things and if the run is a fair size there's room to play as well.

I only crate my dogs at night, they'd go nuts left in a crate for long periods during the day.

Hmmm...you know - I'm not sure about that.

Now I'm no expert...but my initial thinking is that YOU want to be the source of all good things in your dogs life. YOU should be the center of attention. YOU should grant your dog access to smells, games, toys and such.

I guess it depends on what kind of personality you want your dog to develop. I'm hoping for a competitive obeience and agility dog so I want my dogs primary focus to be ME.

Also, puppies need heaps of rest. I think my multiple play and training sessions during the day, followed by rest in his crate seems to keep him satisfied.

I could be wrong though.

PS - I am home during the day, in the same room as my pups crate, it might be different if I was at work 8 hours a day...still not sure though.

Edited June 16, 2008 by Luke W

[CBL]

:cool:

Well I thought I would start a little session tonight after dinner. OH went out and took Patch so no distractions.

I popped him in and hid around the corner. I got about 3 sessions of training, with minimal sooking, then when i went in next he was in his bed and didn't want to come out for his treat! He is now sound asleep :p

Think I will start up the training again tomorrow

[Luke W]

:cool:

Well I thought I would start a little session tonight after dinner. OH went out and took Patch so no distractions.

I popped him in and hid around the corner. I got about 3 sessions of training, with minimal sooking, then when i went in next he was in his bed and didn't want to come out for his treat! He is now sound asleep :p

Think I will start up the training again tomorrow

Fantastic news!

Hows toilet training going?

How old is he?

Wake him up in about 1.5 hours and take him to the toilet.

Then put him straight back in again and repeat the procedure.

That was my approach.

[Miranda]

Is there any reason why the puppy can't be outside during the day? Puppies get bored very quickly in crates and are actually far better off outside if your yard is secure. Even an outside run would be preferable, at least they can see, smell and hear things and if the run is a fair size there's room to play as well.

I only crate my dogs at night, they'd go nuts left in a crate for long periods during the day.

Hmmm...you know - I'm not sure about that.

Now I'm no expert...but my initial thinking is that YOU want to be the source of all good things in your dogs life. YOU should be the center of attention. YOU should grant your dog access to smells, games, toys and such.

I guess it depends on what kind of personality you want your dog to develop. I'm hoping for a competitive obeience and agility dog so I want my dogs primary focus to be ME.

Also, puppies need heaps of rest. I think my multiple play and training sessions during the day, followed by rest in his crate seems to keep him satisfied.

I could be wrong though.

PS - I am home during the day, in the same room as my pups crate, it might be different if I was at work 8 hours a day...still not sure though.

I don't know what breed you have Luke W (I can't make out your avatar), but I have gundogs and if I kept my dogs crated during the daytime they would go insane. What you are doing may be adequate while your dog is a baby puppy, but if you have any sort of working dog I don't think it will be a satisfactory arrangement once it starts to mature.

[Miranda]

Wake him up in about 1.5 hours and take him to the toilet.

Then put him straight back in again and repeat the procedure.

That was my approach.

Hmmm I wouldn't wake a puppy up to take it to the toilet either. Looks like you and I had better agree to disagree Luke W.

[Luke W]

Is there any reason why the puppy can't be outside during the day? Puppies get bored very quickly in crates and are actually far better off outside if your yard is secure. Even an outside run would be preferable, at least they can see, smell and hear things and if the run is a fair size there's room to play as well.

I only crate my dogs at night, they'd go nuts left in a crate for long periods during the day.

Hmmm...you know - I'm not sure about that.

Now I'm no expert...but my initial thinking is that YOU want to be the source of all good things in your dogs life. YOU should be the center of attention. YOU should grant your dog access to smells, games, toys and such.

I guess it depends on what kind of personality you want your dog to develop. I'm hoping for a competitive obeience and agility dog so I want my dogs primary focus to be ME.

Also, puppies need heaps of rest. I think my multiple play and training sessions during the day, followed by rest in his crate seems to keep him satisfied.

I could be wrong though.

PS - I am home during the day, in the same room as my pups crate, it might be different if I was at work 8 hours a day...still not sure though.

I don't know what breed you have Luke W (I can't make out your avatar), but I have gundogs and if I kept my dogs crated during the daytime they would go insane. What you are doing may be adequate while your dog is a baby puppy, but if you have any sort of working dog I don't think it will be a satisfactory arrangement once it starts to mature.

He's a cocker spaniel.

He'll be crated durig the day when I can't watch him and until I can trust him not to eat my stuff, then he'll have free reign inside. I work from home and have a lot of free time to play/train and take him out.

I guess I'll find out how he copes and make adjustments as required. He will be a predominantly inside dog, I don't have a secure outdoor area. He'll also be occupied wih obedience and agility.

[Luke W]

Wake him up in about 1.5 hours and take him to the toilet.

Then put him straight back in again and repeat the procedure.

That was my approach.

Hmmm I wouldn't wake a puppy up to take it to the toilet either. Looks like you and I had better agree to disagree Luke W.

Yeah, that's cool, there's plenty room for different opinions. Mind you, I bet you're more experienced than I am! I seem to remember reading (was it Dunbar?) - that waking the pup in the early stages was a good idea...maybe I'm wrong...I don't wake him anymore btw.

Added:

Maybe if pups are crated during the day, they get used to being settled and quiet...if they are raised outside, they can't cope with crating as adults? Just a thought, horses for courses.

Edited June 16, 2008 by Luke W

[Miranda]

Maybe if pups are crated during the day, they get used to being settled and quiet...if they are raised outside, they can't cope with crating as adults? Just a thought, horses for courses.

My puppies are kept mainly outside until I decide which ones I'm going to run on, the keepers then come inside for short periods during the day and are crated inside overnight and by the time they are 6 months old they have free run of the house and yard. All my dogs are crate trained, but they spend long periods of time outside during the day, I never crate them during the day unless it's absolutely necessary. They get a walk every morning and a period of free running at the park, but if I attempted to confine them for most of the day they'd go stir crazy. They like to lounge around inside, but they also like to go outside to run around and play, stalk a few birds, check out the neighbouring dogs and maybe lie in the sun for a while, I just don't think it's fair to keep an active breed like a setter cooped up in the house all day.

Every dog I own is settled and quiet, I have 6 dogs here at the moment so it can't be any other way.

[NoodleNut]

Maybe if pups are crated during the day, they get used to being settled and quiet...if they are raised outside, they can't cope with crating as adults? Just a thought, horses for courses.

My puppies are kept mainly outside until I decide which ones I'm going to run on, the keepers then come inside for short periods during the day and are crated inside overnight and by the time they are 6 months old they have free run of the house and yard. All my dogs are crate trained, but they spend long periods of time outside during the day, I never crate them during the day unless it's absolutely necessary. They get a walk every morning and a period of free running at the park, but if I attempted to confine them for most of the day they'd go stir crazy. They like to lounge around inside, but they also like to go outside to run around and play, stalk a few birds, check out the neighbouring dogs and maybe lie in the sun for a while, I just don't think it's fair to keep an active breed like a setter cooped up in the house all day.

Every dog I own is settled and quiet, I have 6 dogs here at the moment so it can't be any other way.

For what it is worth .. my Noodle was in a pen inside for the first couple of weeks we got her (at 8weeks) with the crateenclosed in the pen and then another pen outside for another two and she went back and forth for the first month (+plus play sessions, in the car etc) .. then the pen was taken away (allowed to explore once she got used to her surrounding) and she is crated at night only ... and very occassionally during the day for a couple of hours if it is pouring with rain (she is a crazy pup and SITS in the pouring rain!!! or (like Feb/March) a stinking hot 39/40 degree day when it was cooler inside).

Noodle is now 6 months and 50% of the time that she is inside she is on a very long lead in the kitchen/family room (near us).. reducing this time as she becomes more responsive to where she is allowed to go in the house and us being able to keep an eye on her. Noodle is outside a lot of the day too .. depending on where we are .. still only crated at night - works well for us. I wanted Noodle to feel comfotable about being on her own as we can't be with her 24/7 and I wanted her to have some independence and not suffer separation anxiety.

[Setters2]

Keep working on it you will succeed.

I agree with Miranda, your Cocker IS a gun dog, it needs outside time.

Did you know that you can buy specific "dog fence"? We have it around the house, (roughly an acre), and will very soon have our top paddock done as well.

It comes in a variety of heights, ours is the tallest, as I have seen our boy go over the normal fence like it wasn't there!

Our baby came home in her crate, and was locked in at overnight for a little while, like NoodleNut, we had a puppy pen around the crate. The puppy pen is now gone, except at their dinner time, and that is so she doesn't help our boy eat his, because he does let her share ;)

Then, when it was really hot I shut the pen, but left the crate open so she could get out and lay on the lino.

She loves her crate, and puts herself to bed if she is really tired, or if she is a bit scared of something, the door is never shut, she can come and go as she pleases, and has put herself to bed in there now!!!!

She and our other adult dog have full run of the house, except for the bedrooms. We have a wooden barrier that we can step over across our bedroom doorway. She is now nearly six months old, and could get over it if she wanted too, but hasn't ever tried, she knows it is off limits.

Now that she is bigger she sleeps wherever she wants to, (they are always inside at night), they have two trampoline beds, plus ours are allowed on the furniture which is covered with bedspreads. Our choice, the joys of having no kids at home anymore!!!! Our house, our rules, If visitors don't like the dogs inside, they are welcome to NOT come back .

The dogs can come in and out whenever they please during the day when I am at home. They go stalking birds, watch the horses when they are near the house, etc. etc. When I go out they go into a very large dog run outside that has one end enclosed from the weather, and has a roof with open sides on the rest. It has straw on the floor in the winter, with two trampoline beds with blankets, and tarps that I can let down on the sides if it is pouring and cold. I don't trust that they couldn't get out somehow while I wasn't here (If someone came and left the gate open for example).

Although we did leave them inside for the first time while we went away for a short while last night, no problems when we got home.

A crate is fantastic for short periods, but should never be used for the dog to live in for long periods of time. As I said ours loves hers, and she recently had to spend a few hours at the Vet, they were quite amused, and surprised, at her because when she got bored/tired of being out, she put herself back in the crate there! (She had my old jumper that she normally has in her own crate there). Then when I went to pick her up she was sitting on the receptionists knee at the desk!!! We have a few Setter converts at our Vet, cheeky girl she is :D

I wish I had know "about crates" with our other dogs, I only came upon them when I started showing our beautiful girl that we lost at Christmas time

They are the best training tool ever, but not to be misused.

Hang in there, you have to be strong, it sounds like you have sussed out the crying to get out issue.

Now to fix up the backyard so pup can go out and play and explore while we still have a bit of nice weather.

Good luck with your new baby.

[CBL]

Boy this is hard work. I am perservering though.

Had a couple of training sessions throughout the day - he had some great ones where I managed to keep him quiet and reward him after a minute, but then we just had a really bad session where he screamed for 20 mins at a time before I got 15 seconds of silence!

Now curled up in my lap like butter wouldn't melt. I do NILIF with him - he has to sit before he gets his dinner or is allowed on my lap, he picked that up within a day. I just hope the crate clicks with him soon.

btw setter2, not sure if your post about the cocker was aimed at me - Oscar is an iggy

[Setters2]

Sincere apologies CBL, MY BAD!!!! It was very early this morning, my only excuse for being a dunce!

Lukes dog is the cocker!!!!

Anyway keep up the good work, as I have said the penny WILL drop with your baby, keep us posted.

Cheers, Setters2.