To Clicker Or Not To Clicker?

[MrsD]

The clicker is fantastic for learning & shaping new behaviours, you only use it while you TEACH the dog, once the dog knows the exercise you don't need to use it anymore (unless you want to modify the behaviour). You can also change the reward to suit the dog & use a marker instead of the clicker. All of my dogs work with a marker word as well but I do find that the clicker gets better results when you first start a new exercise.

As for the multiple dogs, apart from strengthening the stays or similar, why would you be trying to train 2 dogs at the same time anyway?

Your dog should work for You. YOU the most important thing in his life ~ not food, not toys, YOU.

He does work for me - I control the food & the toys, I control the resources. There has to be a reason (other than blind faith) that a dog will work for you, whether it's the anticipation of praise, food, a reward or a game, or as Tess said the dog does it to avoid the correction.

The dog doesnt just work because it "loves" you.

[Staranais]

Farmers also:

Working breeds that are bred to cooperate with man.

They don't keep dogs who aren't great performers and just do an "average" pet quality job.

Also, some farmers I've seen partially rely on the old dogs to "train" the new dogs.

Puppy gets to watch the older dog working, eventually gets to have a go "helping" the older dog work, and learns his job that way. I reckon that would be much easier for a farmer than starting a single puppy off from scratch. I've heard that sled-dog trainers and hunters often do the same, though haven't seen that for myself.

As for the thread topic, I use clicker and food, or drive and marker words, to teach new behaviours. Using clicker or marker allows you to be very precise with what you teach, and allows the dog to understand what you want quicker, so I always use one or the other. I generally prefer the marker words to pure clicker, since I find it easier to be more communicative with them - I can give him lots of different information (a no reward marker, a keep going signal, a release, etc) instead of just a click.

For well-known routine behaviours at home, I don't give my dog food or toys, I do expect him to perform known behaviors "just" for praise and attention. I do think that attention and praise can be a primary reinforcer for many (not all) dogs, as long as you have a good relationship with the dog and don't lower the value of your attention by constantly giving it non-contingently. After all, the dog is a social animal, he has evolved to intuitively understand different vocal tones and to find touch and social contact with his pack rewarding, and in my experience many dogs will work for these things as long as they're not constantly getting them for "free".

(Also, I personally dislike the idea of having to trick my dog into thinking there "might" be a food or toy treat in order to get him to work with me. I'd feel there was something wrong with our relationship if he wouldn't do very simple things just to earn my approval and attention. I know many people don't agree with that, which is fine, it's personal preference, but it's just how I feel about it, and have felt that way since my first clicker class!)

I do reinforce competition training & recalls & work in new or high-distraction environments with toy rewards, since these things demand a high level of precision and focus and self control, so I feel it's only reasonable to use extrinsic rewards to keep these activities extra fun for him. Plus I figure, he's got to have play and exercise and drive satisfaction somehow - I don't like giving them to him for free, I'd rather make him work for them!

Edited June 13, 2008 by Amhailte

[Jen]

I use a bridge, not always a clicker. I sometimes use a dog whistle for the simple reason that I may need both hands free, and then I will use a dog whistle to mark the behaviour. Yes, you can reward with things such as toys instead of food. I dont because its too slow and I like to keep rewarding often especially when offered a really good behaviour.

jen

[dogdude]

Also, I personally dislike the idea of having to trick my dog into thinking there "might" be a food or toy treat in order to get him to work with me. I'd feel there was something wrong with our relationship if he wouldn't do very simple things just to earn my approval and attention. I know many people don't agree with that, which is fine, it's personal preference, but it's just how I feel about it, and have felt that way since my first clicker class!)

I do reinforce competition training & recalls & work in new or high-distraction environments with toy rewards, since these things demand a high level of precision and focus and self control, so I feel it's only reasonable to use extrinsic rewards to keep these activities extra fun for him. Plus I figure, he's got to have play and exercise and drive satisfaction

I fully agree.

The more I learn about using prey drive, the less I like working with food. IMO the dog is always trying to second guess you, thus affecting concentration to some extent, and also creates a false focus for obedience work.

I also find that training my food driven dog often requires frequent rewarding to keep up a level of drive that is good enough for the obedience ring.

With my prey driven dog, the rewards don't need to be as frequent, because the drive created is so much more powerful, and the dog finds it easier to focus for longer.

[Shoshana]

I started using the clicker only 2 weeks ago with my now 12 week old pup & it took the training to a new level. It's great.

My Rosie is not a big eater otherwise (only weighs 3 kilos), so I use her meal worth of dog bisquits for rewarding. She prefers cheese, & swalows little bits more quickly but I don't want her to fill her tummy with cheese.

Rosie loves clicker training & just seeing the clicker makes her COME to me, SIT & LIE DOWN, SIT & LIE DOWN over & over - thats all she knows for now. I'm surprised she doesn't add the WEE to the SIT & LIE DOWN show. :D

[Jessca]

i dont use a clicker, ive been told they dont work well with working dogs, is this true??

[Kavik]

Works fine with my working line Kelpie

We use toys as well, but for some things the clicker is useful. I used the clicker for initial work for contact training (teaching 2o2o) and for dumbell work, as well as targetting.

Edited June 16, 2008 by Kavik

[laffi]

i dont use a clicker, ive been told they dont work well with working dogs, is this true??

I use clicker with my working line australian shepherd.

[Kelpie-i]

i dont use a clicker, ive been told they dont work well with working dogs, is this true??

Whoever told you this is telling you porkie pies.

I too use a clicker for both of my kelpies and also my corgie x red heeler without a problem at all, in fact their eyes light up each time they see it.

[PAX]

i dont use a clicker, ive been told they dont work well with working dogs, is this true??

I better not tell my Dobermann that clickers don't work, she might go on strike.

[Seita]

A clicker is great for marking and targeting certain behaviours and they often are very practical for people who are learning how to target behaviours. Other benefits are that it gives the same sound every time, which the dog picks up very quickly. I don't use them because I like having my hands free for training so I use the same principle but instead of a click I use the word 'yes' to mark behaviours. They need to be coupled with a reward of some sort and that reward will depend on what turns your dog on, whether that be food, toys, a game or praise - there is no right answer to what the best reward is, it completely depends on what your dog *thinks* the best reward is. For my current dog it's a game of tug, for the dog before her is was verbal and physical praise, and the dog before that it was food all the way.

[Jessca]

Works fine with my working line Kelpie :p

We use toys as well, but for some things the clicker is useful. I used the clicker for initial work for contact training (teaching 2o2o) and for dumbell work, as well as targetting.

i dont use a clicker, ive been told they dont work well with working dogs, is this true??

I use clicker with my working line australian shepherd.

i dont use a clicker, ive been told they dont work well with working dogs, is this true??

Whoever told you this is telling you porkie pies.

I too use a clicker for both of my kelpies and also my corgie x red heeler without a problem at all, in fact their eyes light up each time they see it.

thanks guys i might try it on kaiser. might motivate him a bit more.

i dont use a clicker, ive been told they dont work well with working dogs, is this true??

I better not tell my Dobermann that clickers don't work, she might go on strike. :p

oh no... i better keep quite dont want your dobie or any other working dogs to go on strike

thanks again everyone :cool: