To Clicker Or Not To Clicker?

[Tatelina]

So we've always grown up teaching dogs tricks, commands and obedience without clicker training or attending classes.

I now need some direction so am looking for a good club that I want to become a regular of....but in the mean time - should I get a clicker!? :D

My girls are 2years oldish. One of them (staffy X cattle) is very trainable as she just loves to please so I'm just thinking will a clicker make it easier for me?

OR

will a clicker with always having a minimum of two dogs in my yard confuse the dog that I'm not training with?

AND does a clicker work without food? I usually 'train' by getting unbelivably excited and so far Jeddas learnt how to sit, drop, bark, crawl, jump up in the air and stay with minimal food.

Hmm. I feel like I've hit a wall because not only do I need more tips and ideas on training (am hoping the training club I join will help) but I'm also not sure on the best ways to go about it, and how else to train new things.

What do you find with clicker training if you use it? Pros? Cons?

Do you use a different method that you feel works even better for you?

[dogdude]

Yes clickers will work without food. Just not by themselves. They will work with whatever motivates your dog. Their just for capturing the exact moment the dog makes the right choice.

I don't use them.

[Kavik]

I like using a clicker for new tricks - it is fun! You can be very precise in what you reward, though as I have pointed out in another thread, you sometimes accidentally reward the wrong thing which can lead to some interesting behaviours! :D My most memorable is while teaching Diesel to retrieve, he thought he was supposed to take the dumbell and throw it instead of bring it to me :D We fixed it but it took some time!

I use food when I clicker train, you may be able to use toys, but I haven't tried that.

I don't use a clicker for everything, and eventually fade it out, but at the start it can be useful and the dogs get very excited when they see it.

Do your guys like food or toys?

Edit: I train one dog at a time with a clicker - the other dogs are away so it doesn't get confusing.

Edited June 10, 2008 by Kavik

[WalandLibby]

will a clicker with always having a minimum of two dogs in my yard confuse the dog that I'm not training with?

Have you seen ppl training animals for shows like those at Seaworld? They will usually have a system where they can mark the behaviour of one individual in a group - often by marking and then pointing at that animal. It is something that the animals need to learn, and if there is any inclination by your animals to compete for resources, then it can certainly be a problem. It would only really be fair imo to work with other dogs around if they are also in a position to work for rewards (such as for lying and watching).

Karen Pryor has a clicker that makes a range of sounds, so that each animal can have their own click, I haven't tried that though. I imagine that when I was a beginner that would have added an extra challenge to my already stretched coordination. Actually it might challenge my coordination still. :-) When I had multiple dogs, they each had their own verbal marker.

AND does a clicker work without food?

It needs to be used with rewards, but they can be used with anything that the dog likes. More powerful rewards are more powerful reinforcers (have a greater effect on behaviour). While it's fairly common for clicker trainers to use toy rewards for at least some behaviours, for behaviours that require calmness or precision usually treats are more efficient (until the dog understands the task at least) because the dog can swallow a treat faster than it can do most other things and be ready for the next trial and because the dog will stay in a state of mind (unless it's a particularly foodie dog, but that's another story) where it can think. Toys often get more excitement and speed built into the behaviour from the beginning (so good for agility).

Many clicker trainers (myself included) think that verbal praise is usually a conditioned reinforcer like the click itself - it represents a 'real' thing that the dog wants - and so is unlikely to be as powerful as some other (primary) reinforcers. But you can only judge a reinforcer by it's effects - if the dog is putting in effort to get whatever you're using, then it must be reinforcing for him.

Edited June 10, 2008 by WalandLibby

[corvus]

I have found the clicker to be a breeze with my brand new puppy, but a real challenge with my 12 year old corgi. Penny the corgi was originally trained traditionally. She is also wildly food motivated to the point where she doesn't care if all I have in my hand is a piece of lettuce. She'll still go stupid over it. In the end I gave up on her. She's a great dog and already does everything I really want her to. I just wanted to have a play.

Kivi Tarro loves the clicker game. It's really easy to tell him exactly what it is he's doing that I like with the clicker. He'll happily train for 30 minutes as long as he keeps winning. My partner doesn't like it, though. He finds it too hard to co ordinate. So KT gets trained with clickers and a voice marker. We use food with him because it's about the right level of excitement, but food is too much for Penny. With Penny we use affection and verbal praise. It's hard to use a clicker with that.

With a clicker, ideally you should be able to pump out rewards at a rate of one every 2 seconds. If you can do that without food, then go for it!

[smoothcollie]

I have never used a clicker, I would like to one day for my dog and maybe a second one to train the pigeons to come into their loft for feeding time .

Edited June 11, 2008 by smoothcollie

[WalandLibby]

to train the pigeons to come into their loft for feeding time

You could have fun teaching the pigeons lots of things, their capacity is quite extraordinary (especially on visual tasks). :-)

[DogsLover]

I use Clicker most of the time but since there isn't this option, I choose the closest which is the first one.

[Ashka]

I prefer to use training aids that I always have with me ...... even if nekkid.

My Voice for commands and praise ~ My Hands and arms for signals and pats.

Consistent = Always.

I don't use food or treats for praise with kids or dogs ~ there are more than enough overweight kids and dogs already.

[Guest Tess32]

Do you use toys instead Ashka?

Treats don't have to make dogs fat you know

[Kavik]

I use treats all the time and mine are certainly not fat!

[Ashka]

Do farmers use toys?

After nearly 40 years training dogs, often for Obedience trials, I'll keep doing what works for me & mine.

Use whatever works for you and most of all have fun.

Your dog should work for You. YOU the most important thing in his life ~ not food, not toys, YOU.

[Luke W]

I prefer to use training aids that I always have with me ...... even if nekkid.

My Voice for commands and praise ~ My Hands and arms for signals and pats.

Consistent = Always.

I don't use food or treats for praise with kids or dogs ~ there are more than enough overweight kids and dogs already.

Hehe - Nothing In Life Is Free

My kids have to run 5 kms for dinner.

Just joking, I don't have kids.

[laffi]

When I need to use a marker I always use a clicker: much more precise, consistent and fast than verbal marker.

The marker needs to be connected to a primary reinforcer (food or toys). I don't think my dogs would enjoy me patting them every few secs when we are shaping. It would be more distracting than anything else.

I use food for most clicker training and toys once the dog understands her job and I need to build up more speed and enthusiasm. My dogs are defintely not fat

[PAX]

Do farmers use toys?

Farmers use the greatest reward to dogs of all, to work stock, no need for toys as they have the big gun of rewards.

[WalandLibby]

With herding, because the rewards are more difficult to control, you also have less opportunity to modify details of what the dog does. You're very dependant on the instincts being right.

[PAX]

You're very dependant on the instincts being right.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this.

I find it very frustrating when people compare dog training/dog obedience to working dogs obedience and how people like to say that the working dog gets no reward when in fact the working dog gets the greatest reward of all.

Eg, my dog loves to work sheep, I could get some very fancy duration heelwork from her if I had sheep in the paddock as she knows to earn an opportunity to get to work the sheep it has to come through me. More often than not I don't have sheep in my training area for a reward so I will use toys, food or games as her reward for playing my stupid obedience games.

And another, one of my dogs loves to chase the Ibis off the football fields, I will get her to do a few things for me then release her to chase the Ibis (that is a reward that is hard to control ) away as a reward, it's not food or toys but it is a huge reward for the dog and the same principle the farmer uses.

If the dog doesn't play by the farmers rules he will not have the opportunity to work the farmers stock.

[PAX]

And yes I use a clicker for trainng anything new.

[WalandLibby]

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this.

Only that when training obedience type things the click/reward communicates to the dog the behaviour they 'ought' to do. And many small rewards can be used to communicate subtleties of the task. But you can't provide such similar, small rewards to a dog that is herding (I don't think you can at least, if you manage to do so I'd be interested to find out how). And being left at home rather than taking the dog working does not provide any means for the dog to learn to change it's way of working.

You could teach most dogs to heel, but not most dogs to herd.

Edited June 12, 2008 by WalandLibby

[Guest Tess32]

Do farmers use toys?

Farmers use the greatest reward to dogs of all, to work stock, no need for toys as they have the big gun of rewards.

Farmers also:

Working breeds that are bred to cooperate with man.

They don't keep dogs who aren't great performers and just do an "average" pet quality job.

How farmers train is barely relevant to training pet dogs for obedience/tricks etc.

*Most* people who think all dogs can be trained without any rewards at all are usually doing something like popping with check chains - the dog is avoiding the correction, not working FOR you.

Good trainers will use a variety of tools that would work for any given dog, not just hope they have a dog that will comply without question out of some human need for "loyalty".

So Ashka, if a dog doesn't recall for you, would you correct the dog? Do you think perhaps the dog is going to recall next time to avoid a CORRECTION, rather than recalling because you're wonderful?

Edited June 12, 2008 by Tess32