Training Class For Aggressive Dogs

[sas]

I stumbled upon this and I'm not sure what I make out of it, positive or negative?

[Kelpie-i]

It looks like a mixture of the Ian Dunbar "Growl Class" technique and Cesar Milan's "Power of the Pack" theory. Two worlds come together!

If you read the comments below, he does state "no guarantees", so it may not work for all..but the same can be said for many other techniques.

I would love to try something like this out but would need to check with my Insurance company first

[sas]

It's an interesting concept, I guess what the dog is learning that no harm is coming to it i.e. all the dogs are muzzled.

[4 Paws]

wow,interesting concept and most dogs appeared to be settled after a short while.

Would love to know if that was the 1st time this class had done it or they had been doing that programme for a while

[Erny]

It's an interesting concept, I guess what the dog is learning that no harm is coming to it i.e. all the dogs are muzzled.

Muzzling isn't the be all and end all of it though (although stopping teeth gnashing at each other is a big start, I agree). If there was a fight that had broken out there can be trauma and that could make some fears worse. Injury by claws is also possible. I think the people would have to have ensured their own hierarchy status first, before they even attempted that exercise. I suspect too, that each dog there would have undergone some assessment for suitability for the exercise as well.

Great if it worked though. And makes it very interesting how the dogs' behaviours altered over the session.

As 4 Paws mentions, some historical information would be really good .... not to mention what has transpired since.

[Kavik]

Very interesting.

[ruthless]

There was an episode of Dogs with Jobs recently that showed something similar. The "trainer" had a very non reactive GSD. She had a class of aggressive dogs that were muzzled and they were all let off one at a time to interact with her dog. It took more than one class to "cure" them, but you could really see a difference. Very interesting.

[Guest Bambalam]

There was an episode of Dogs with Jobs recently that showed something similar. The "trainer" had a very non reactive GSD. She had a class of aggressive dogs that were muzzled and they were all let off one at a time to interact with her dog. It took more than one class to "cure" them, but you could really see a difference. Very interesting.

I saw that too! I thought that was a good idea, one at a time and in a moderately controlled environment. The link though I thought was just a free for all I would definitely not want to be in there!

JMO

[jaybeece]

I would love to try something like this out but would need to check with my Insurance company first

If you're serious I wouldn't mind participating in it Looks interesting and I think it could work really well with fearful or defensive dogs. They don't always need their teeth to win a fight though so I guess it could also backfire a bit, must depend on the dog.

[Kelpie-i]

jaybeece are you serious, would you really want to try this out??

Anyone else out there willing? As a behavioural trainer, I feel an initial screening of the dogs would need to be done. Are there any trainers out there interested??

[Kavik]

Wouldn't one reactive with other non-reactive be better? Zoe, who is aggressive to just about everyone, can go to Diesel's breeder's and just be put into a yard with their other dogs, and she is fine. She stayed there for a few weeks several years ago when they tried to help me fix her aggression (worked for them, not for me ) but even now she is fine there, years later. Their dogs are non reactive, one of the reasons I got Diesel.

[Pippi]

jaybeece are you serious, would you really want to try this out??

Anyone else out there willing? As a behavioural trainer, I feel an initial screening of the dogs would need to be done. Are there any trainers out there interested??

Absolutely interested, from both sides of the fence

[jaybeece]

jaybeece are you serious, would you really want to try this out??

Anyone else out there willing? As a behavioural trainer, I feel an initial screening of the dogs would need to be done. Are there any trainers out there interested??

Yup, I'm serious It would depend on the dogs involved and the reason why they're aggressive, but if it was a small group or one on one I reakon it could work really well.

I'd need to get a plastic muzzle though as his metal basket one would still hurt another dog, leaves bruises on me if he whacks me on the legs.

[harper]

That all went like clock work on the clip but would doing something like that be likely to transfer to the real world?

Even though the dogs calm down after a time could this method actually teach and reinforce to the dogs that on initial introduction with other dogs they are free to go into a frenzied drive state? If dealing with a DA dog would you not be wanting to reinforce indifference and non- reactivity to other dogs from the get go?

[Erny]

jaybeece are you serious, would you really want to try this out??

Anyone else out there willing? As a behavioural trainer, I feel an initial screening of the dogs would need to be done. Are there any trainers out there interested??

Yes .... although I do not envisage it as a "come bring your dog and muzzle down and lets let the dogs off" exercise. I don't for a second think you're suggesting that either, Kelpie-i. I would envisage numerous sessions with the group (on lead and working specific behaviour modification exercises) before (and if) the 'get together' could be possible.

[Kavik]

I've got one I'm more than willing to lend . . .

[Erny]

I do not believe the method shown is for dogs with dog/dog aggro that is beyond, say "mild" (which in itself is a subjective term and open to interpretation I know, but I hope the individual's interpretation is not too far off the mark from which I intend it to mean).

None of the dogs in that vid clip, you will note, exhibited aggression that was much beyond "mild".

If any dogs in the "team" expressed aggression beyond that, IMO a separate and individual program would need to be undertaken until the aggression remaining was to a suitable level and threshold.

[jaybeece]

I do not believe the method shown is for dogs with dog/dog aggro that is beyond, say "mild" (which in itself is a subjective term and open to interpretation I know, but I hope the individual's interpretation is not too far off the mark from which I intend it to mean).

None of the dogs in that vid clip, you will note, exhibited aggression that was much beyond "mild".

If any dogs in the "team" expressed aggression beyond that, IMO a separate and individual program would need to be undertaken until the aggression remaining was to a suitable level and threshold.

I'd agree with that Erny and wouldn't want a dog involved that would fly off the handle and continue to do so even if the other dog isn't reciprocating. That wouldn't be productive for anyone. I'm not sure if my dog would be "mild" enough still to be honest, but he has calmed down a lot and I think offlead would be a lot different to onlead so maybe he'd really benefit from something like this.

I got the feeling that, like you, none of the dogs in the video were particularly bad and it did seem they were reasonably familiar with each other. So a pretty favourable situation.

Edited June 11, 2008 by jaybeece

[Kelpie-i]

That all went like clock work on the clip but would doing something like that be likely to transfer to the real world?

Even though the dogs calm down after a time could this method actually teach and reinforce to the dogs that on initial introduction with other dogs they are free to go into a frenzied drive state? If dealing with a DA dog would you not be wanting to reinforce indifference and non- reactivity to other dogs from the get go?

Bosko, the aim of any work with a DA dog is to teach alternative behaviours to what the dog currently feels it needs to do. Each subsequent action any DA dog displays is learned by the dog himself ie. if he growls the threat goes away, therefore he keeps growling each time he sees a dog because this has worked so well for him in the past. It's been referred to as "distance increasing signals". Also, many of these behaviours are exasperated (sp?) by the owner being at the other end of the lead. This causes patterned situations to occur and to what some trainers call "lead aggression".

Why this particular method intrigues me so much is that whilst you are inhibiting the dog's ability to bite (with the muzzle), you are placing the dog in a situation where you remove all the resources he has come to know and trust will work for him ie. dog lead, handler, being moved away, growling and in some cases, biting. Initially I think the dog will feel a little vulnerable and uncomfortable and may very well resort to the "old bag of tools" behaviours he currently knows, but I believe that a dog who is relatively stable nerved will develop new coping strategies quickly enough. Most of the dogs involved will commence to display displacement signals in an effort to calm and appease the other dogs... this is a natural occurrence in most dogs and is the essence of Pamela Dennison's teachings. Some will already know to do this, others won't and will learn it. Remember that dogs carry allelomimetic tendencies so they will start to copy what the others are doing. This, at the end of the day, is the final goal you wish to achieve. For the dogs to learn an alternative behaviour.

The aim of this method is not to have your dog happily romping around with other dogs, but to teach the dog to teach himself new coping strategies and to also help build his confidence when around other dogs. I believe that most of the dogs will no longer feel they need to resort to aggression. It may not occur with just a single session..it may take a few sessions.

If something like this was to go ahead, it would need to be well planned and prepared with emergency measures well in place. All dogs would need to be screened for the "type" of aggression and everyone will be very well briefed beforehand. It would be monitored by a number of trainers and documented.

Erny, no, I most definitely would not pile all the dogs together like a minestrone soup and hope for the best. It would be done using the right type of dog and under the correct conditions. I'm still toying with this however, and am not in any position to do this anytime soon in case you're all wondering.

Edited June 11, 2008 by Kelpie-i

[Ms James]

I'll volunteer Roggie He's gotten really good at one on one situations & I can take him for walks now without too many incidents (thanks erny!!!), but since MrJames has gone to Adders, I've been a lazy cow with actively going to training on Sundays & therefore he hasn't been tested much in group situations.

Erny, do you think something like this would be a positive for Rogs?