Any Benefit Of Clicker Over Verbal Marker ?

[4 Paws]

I have my dogs trained using a verbal marker(yes).Do you think there's any benefit of using a clicker instead of verbal marker?

Edited June 6, 2008 by 4 Paws

[Erny]

Faster delivery.

For some reason, some people find it easier to deliver the 'click' marker more accurately timed.

People also say that because it is the exact same tone each and every time, the dog learns it quicker and I expect that is definitely the case. However, I tend to find the dog learns a verbal marker with sufficient efficiency so long as it is said with approximate similarity. But perhaps not everyone can do that easily or naturally???? The trouble with "same tone" is that it becomes distracting/confusing if there are other people in close proximity using the "clicker" to mark their dogs' behaviours.

I find them cumbersome and in the way. I use both hands for training. Each hand working independantly of the other. I'm sure if I persisted and used the clicker on a frequent and regular basis, I'd get used to it. But I've not found it to have made a startling (if any) difference to my verbal marker ("yes") nor to training, so unless I have particular cause to want or need to use the clicker, I tend not to.

Using a clicker for Training in Drive, I especially find particularly awkward, because I'm too busy .... especially in the early stages of training.

But it does have advantages for those people who aren't inclined to use their voice/tone to praise the dog in timely fashion. Perhaps because it becomes an important and vital component of training for them ("look at me ............ I'm CLICKER TRAINING!!!!!") and because they are holding the clicker, keeps this uppermost in their mind. ????

Edited June 6, 2008 by Erny

[4 Paws]

I do own one but as you said i am usually using both hands for training,ie lead and other hand for signals,treats etc.

I did buy one of those wrist thingys to hold it but it was still a pain.I can understand what you're saying about the tones etc.I always give my dogs the marker wheter it b during an actaul training session or just going to there mat/crate when told etc or doing what i've asked.

thanks for the info erny

[corvus]

We use a verbal marker and the clicker with Kivi Tarro. I like the clicker but my partner doesn't. At training class we use a marker word because the trainer doesn't think 10 week old puppies can't handle both a clicker and a verbal marker. KT thinks otherwise. I often pair the clicker with the same verbal marker my partner uses anyway. I find that KT tends to learn new things quicker with the clicker than without because it's very clear and I think it stands out from the background talk I tend to do while training. The problem with a verbal marker compared to a clicker is that a click is typically always followed by a treat, whereas a verbal marker is often still used when food rewards are being phased out. So in a way the verbal marker could lose its effectiveness a little. Ideally, we'd be using a different verbal marker when we're still using treats every time and then switch to another word when we start phasing the treats out, but who's gonna remember that? And it could in itself become a cue for the dog that they will no longer get a treat every time.

A clicker savvy dog is often off the clicker and onto verbal markers and intermitant rewards within 2 or 3 clicks for a simple thing. I watch KT and he's quite keen to make the clicker click so he gets his treat. His attention tends to be better when training with the clicker.

Edited June 7, 2008 by corvus

[Tonymc]

I much prefer the verbal. Tony

[4 Paws]

thanks for your thoughts.

I'm wondering if a clicker may be more beneficial in some situations for my gsd who is fear aggressive of other dogs(mainly large ones).I find all other commands she is great with verbal markers but once she gets around dogs i find she does not seem to focus on my voice as much,any thoughts?

Do you think its worthwhile trying the clicker instead while around other dogs for not reacting?

[Erny]

thanks for your thoughts.

I'm wondering if a clicker may be more beneficial in some situations for my gsd who is fear aggressive of other dogs(mainly large ones).I find all other commands she is great with verbal markers but once she gets around dogs i find she does not seem to focus on my voice as much,any thoughts?

Do you think its worthwhile trying the clicker instead while around other dogs for not reacting?

Yes - I think it is worthwhile. Naturally, the 'clicker' is not a methodology unto itself though. Its timing and delivery will probably be more concise which means you may find you have a better chance of marking the better behaviour (eg. Dog drawing breath in between growls) ..... but there is IMO so much more that needs to be taken into account. If you are going to use this, make sure you have 'charged' your clicker to something of very high value for your dog. And you need to be mindful that your reward that the clicker signals is not something that serves as a reinforcer to the fear aggro behaviour.

[corvus]

Sometimes I wonder about rewarding things like a breath between growls. If the dog is still in that emotional state, aren't you really marking the wrong thing? I thought about this when I was training Kiv Tarro to spend alone time in the pen. I could see by his behaviour that sometimes when he was quiet for a few seconds he was still very agitated and restless. If he was quiet for a full minute, his behaviour would change and he started to calm down more. I rewarded then. If he'd been going for 20 minutes and I didn't get a window in which to reward him, I took him out and tried again later. I don't know if it made any difference, it just felt wrong to drop him a treat when he was all worked up but silent for a moment. Isn't it better to back off until the dog is not worked up and then reward?

Hey, try the book "Click to Calm". Forget who the author is, but you can get it at the Vet Shed online. I've heard good things about it.

[Erny]

Isn't it better to back off until the dog is not worked up and then reward?

I think it is safer this way, yes.

Hey, try the book "Click to Calm". Forget who the author is, but you can get it at the Vet Shed online. I've heard good things about it.

Emma Parsons is the Author. It is a "Karen Pryor Clicker Book".

[Kelpie-i]

Corvus: Sometimes I wonder about rewarding things like a breath between growls. If the dog is still in that emotional state, aren't you really marking the wrong thing? I thought about this when I was training Kiv Tarro to spend alone time in the pen. I could see by his behaviour that sometimes when he was quiet for a few seconds he was still very agitated and restless. If he was quiet for a full minute, his behaviour would change and he started to calm down more. I rewarded then. If he'd been going for 20 minutes and I didn't get a window in which to reward him, I took him out and tried again later. I don't know if it made any difference, it just felt wrong to drop him a treat when he was all worked up but silent for a moment. Isn't it better to back off until the dog is not worked up and then reward?

Interesting point you make Corvus and I think it can actually go either way, depending on the situation and reason for the behaviour. I work with dogs in kennels on a regular basis and I find that if I throw food to those who are always rushing up the kennels and barking each time I walk past, by the end of the day, those dogs are then rushing up to the front of the kennels with their noses to the ground looking for the food, rather than barking. Rather than reward the barking behaviour, it actually created a different behaviour in the dogs. This is a good Ian Dunbar method that works quite well.

For a dog that's barking through fear, you're best to work with the dog when it is in a calmer state of mind and critical distance should be well estabslished by the handler.

Edited June 9, 2008 by Kelpie-i

[Guest Tess32]

I've found all my dogs have responded better to a clicker, I think as a marker it stands out more than my voice. I can also click faster than I remember to say "yes". I use both but get better results with the clicker, generally.

[4 Paws]

I've found all my dogs have responded better to a clicker, I think as a marker it stands out more than my voice. I can also click faster than I remember to say "yes". I use both but get better results with the clicker, generally.

thankyou for your thoughts,i might give it a go in situations that she finds hard(ie-around other dogs)although i'll probably still use my YES as i'll find it hard to keep my mouth closed after doing it for so long

[dogdude]

My question to the clicker people is; Do you also mark non compliance? If so, how? :D

[Guest Tess32]

My question to the clicker people is; Do you also mark non compliance? If so, how? :D

With a clicker? No. The clicker's meaning would be confused and diluted.

[dogdude]

Hi Tess32

So you mark non compliance verbally? Not at all?

[Guest Tess32]

Hi Tess32

So you mark non compliance verbally? Not at all?

Would depend on what it was, but I'd correct verbally first if that's appropriate or possible. I only use the clicker in the teaching phase, so I wouldn't be correcting then anyway regardless - I'd only correct when it's clear the dog knows what to do and is choosing not to comply.

Oops forgot to add, I wouldn't really "mark" the non compliance anyway - the verbal would be a correction in itself, not a bridge before the correction. I haven't gotten to distance work yet but I would do a lot on a long line first.

Edited June 10, 2008 by Tess32

[dogdude]

I find I need to use both markers continually throughout training, even advanced.

When I use the words "marking non compliance", i'm not talking about correction, just giving the dog feedback to let him know the chance of reward evaporated at that very instant of making the wrong choice.

My point is that marking non compliance is one of the reasons I choose not to train with a clicker. I think there are pro's and cons regarding them.

[Guest Tess32]

I find I need to use both markers continually throughout training, even advanced.

When I use the words "marking non compliance", i'm not talking about correction, just giving the dog feedback to let him know the chance of reward evaporated at that very instant of making the wrong choice.

My point is that marking non compliance is one of the reasons I choose not to train with a clicker. I think there are pro's and cons regarding them.

If you are shaping though, I don't see any need to mark every time the dog doesn't do what you are hoping for - the lack of reinforcement will extinguish that "guess" anyway or you could do "uh oh". Considering how rapidly the dog can make choices when shaping an exercise I think I'd go a bit looney if I had to mark every single action yes or no :D

Depends on how we all train I guess and the dogs. Most clicker trainers use a verbal as a non reward marker - I did try it for a while but didn't feel it was making any real difference - as my dogs all learnt to 'try something different" if no reward/marker came at any given time.

[dogdude]

I don't free shape as such, but I do feel that marking non compliance is also a cue for the dog to try again, and if used in the right way, will not do damage to the dogs learning...infact accelerate it.

Its also usefull later on when a dog sometimes gets confused between exercises (advanced)

I'm not saying that clickers can't be usefull. I do think that sometimes they are unnecessary.

[corvus]

I'm pretty chatty when I train. It depends on how I'm training something as to whether I use a no-reward marker. If I'm shaping, no, if I'm luring, yes, if I'm practicing something KT already knows, yes. I say "ah-ah" because it pops right out.