kja Posted June 5, 2008 Share Posted June 5, 2008 (edited) DH bought a training collar for Ms Tilly and he put it on yesterday. It's one of those with the remote control and when you hit the button it does a zzzzzz vibration. He says it does a little shock if you hit it straight away again and he tested it on himself and said it was just a little poke. We haven't hit the button more than once for Til so all she's been exposed to is the vibration (it feels kind of cool, but I can see how it would startle a puppy!). It also makes a little zzzz noise which is also useful for getting the attention. So anyway... Til is a huge counter surfer and very destructive, so yesterday she had the collar on and started to do her thing and hubby hit the button. She immediately dropped back to all fours, ran out of the kitchen and looked around. We had removed the chair barricade and she wouldn't go into the kitchen again. Good. One vibration and she's learning. About an hour later, she totally lost it. Came running into my office like a tornado - up on the couch, under the desk, through the computer cords - just crazy dog. She would not budge and I had to physically lift her out of the office. She promptly ran to the front door and cowered in the corner with her ears back, all hang doggie. I went to her and called her. She came but all curled up and pathetic like they do. I gave her a pat, removed her collar and she bolted back to the corner again. Called her again, she came to me but still all cowery but with tail wagging. Talked to her, she gave me a cuddle then tried to go back to the corner. As she moved, I saw that she had piddled. So, clean it up, get her out of the corner, play a game. She's fine and seems happy. Another hour or so goes by. She comes tear assing into the living room over the furniture, behind the chair, through the cat post, onto the other couch. Insane dog. Then she jumps on the couch and settles in. I tell her NO and GET DOWN. Nothing, just the big brown puppy eyes. So I say NO again while pushing/pulling her off. Two seconds later, she's back on the couch. Repeat this scenario five or six times with no more than a minute between bouts and with me trying to get her to sit on her own mat instead, trying to distract her with toys (this was the whole minute interval) etc. Totally nutso. She did not have the collar on the whole day, just for about 1 hr 15 minutes. She normally doesn't wear a collar at home, so when we do put one on, she thinks we are going for a walk or in the car and gets all excited and happy dancing. Same thing happens when we later put the new collar on her. She wasn't freaked out about it, just dancing and wanting to go DO something. I'm at a loss. The vibration seems like such a great thing as it doesn't hurt, you don't have to be within arms reach so she doesn't think you pushing her or getting her attention with a hand bite to the neck is a game etc and she seemed to "get it". But then she went totally nutso later in the day. I'm not sure the two are related, but this is the craziest I've ever seen her so I thought I'd put up both concerns in one area. Also, in the past couple of days, she has totally stopped coming when we call sometimes. Doesn't even look up or pause in what she is doing. Won't come for food treats unless our other girl is there, too. Otherwise, total ignoring. What should we do? Edited June 5, 2008 by kja Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalandLibby Posted June 5, 2008 Share Posted June 5, 2008 (edited) I think she's saying pretty clearly that the collar is big deal for her, and that she's learning far too much from it - not only for eg to avoid the things you are actually trying to punish her for, but also a whole lot of other things in the environment too. This is a common side effect of punishment - it's very difficult to target punishment only to the behaviour you want to. If you're interested, this is an article I have on my website about the difficulties of using punishment - http://furpersondogtraining.webs.com/punishment.htm Edited June 5, 2008 by WalandLibby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruthless Posted June 5, 2008 Share Posted June 5, 2008 kja did you get any training on how to use the collar beforehand? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kja Posted June 5, 2008 Author Share Posted June 5, 2008 (edited) Hubby's been doing the reading/research on this thing. I haven't used it at all, but I did take it off of her yesterday. I haven't touched it or shown it to her or anything. When he put it back on her yesterday evening, she came to him with no problems and pranced around with the collar on (after settling down once she figured out we weren't going for a walk just coz she's wearing a collar). She doesn't seem scared of it or scared of wearing it. Most of the behaviour was after the collar was off. I'm trying to load the link now...I'll send it to DH, too. I'm on the fence about using this method, but I am also having no luck with the things I am trying. One of the main problems is that DH does not do the things I do and is not consistent. This was fine with our other two, but is clearly a major problem with the new girl. It doesn't matter how much I explain, how many links I give him or whatever, he just won't do it. Didn't do it with the kids, not doing it with the dog. So we have to figure out something that isn't 100% optimal and make it work. I worry about her a lot as this not coming thing - which started before the collar - really stresses me. I leave for holidays in three weeks, and I can just imagine the "discipline" that will happen while I'm gone and I'm afraid we'll never have a settled dog. EDIT - is this a good thing? Edited June 5, 2008 by kja Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruthless Posted June 5, 2008 Share Posted June 5, 2008 I think they're a great tool, but I would strongly suggest that you get some training in how to use it properly. K9 Force does distance training packages afaik. Maybe shoot him a PM or check out his website. Good luck ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalandLibby Posted June 6, 2008 Share Posted June 6, 2008 EDIT - is this a good thing?I think so, actually I think it's wonderful. And if you make a mistake, there's no harm done and you can just reteach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kja Posted June 6, 2008 Author Share Posted June 6, 2008 Do you have a link for that? By distance do you mean remote - like he's not actually where I am? Coz that's the only way we could do it since we live in the sticks... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruthless Posted June 6, 2008 Share Posted June 6, 2008 http://www.k9force.net/ There's a link on the left for Distance Learning, click it then scroll down and you see Advanced Training with the Remote Collar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted June 6, 2008 Share Posted June 6, 2008 (edited) EDIT - is this a good thing?I think so, actually I think it's wonderful. And if you make a mistake, there's no harm done and you can just reteach. I think it's the best thing ever invented :) The speed that your dog picks up new things and the confidence that they have is something that you have to experience and see first hand ;) As with most things - used incorrectly you will not reap the results... but I guess the wost is that you end up not using it because it 'doesn't work'. LOL! It is a very precise training tool so... 'be careful what you click' ;) Edited June 6, 2008 by leopuppy04 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted June 6, 2008 Share Posted June 6, 2008 (edited) Easy to accidentally shape the wrong thing! When I clicker trained Diesel's retrieve, he thought he was supposed to take the dumbell and hurl it instead of hold it and bring it to me - that took a while to retrain . . . About the ecollar - best to get professional help so you don't confuse the dog. Edited June 6, 2008 by Kavik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalandLibby Posted June 6, 2008 Share Posted June 6, 2008 Easy to accidentally shape the wrong thing!When I clicker trained Diesel's retrieve, he thought he was supposed to take the dumbell and hurl it instead of hold it and bring it to me - that took a while to retrain . . . It doesn't allow us to take the communication between person and dog for granted does it - it shows us all the places where they have no idea what we're on about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalandLibby Posted June 6, 2008 Share Posted June 6, 2008 Another thought, kja, the place to go to get inspired about the possibilities of clicker training is Youtube. Just do a search. There are some very exciting things there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kja Posted June 6, 2008 Author Share Posted June 6, 2008 Easy to accidentally shape the wrong thing!When I clicker trained Diesel's retrieve, he thought he was supposed to take the dumbell and hurl it instead of hold it and bring it to me -. . This is my fear with anything we do - hubby just doesn't get the timing thing or the consistency thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted June 6, 2008 Share Posted June 6, 2008 Easy to accidentally shape the wrong thing!When I clicker trained Diesel's retrieve, he thought he was supposed to take the dumbell and hurl it instead of hold it and bring it to me - that took a while to retrain . . . :) ;) Yup - Kinta thought sit at heel involved a fancy paw wave. Try teaching scent work with clicker training - works a treat - but boy - the initial stages were hilarious - first he nudged every single article till he heard the click, then it was mouth every article until the click! Once he got the scenting part though - the clicker was an excellent tool! The amount of things i've taught 'by accident' with the clicker is funny ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rom Posted June 6, 2008 Share Posted June 6, 2008 WalandLibby did you study with Delta overseas? Was wondering because I read your website: Cert IV in Behavioural Dog Training through the Delta Society in 2003/04 I don't think they offer this in Aus?.....they only do a Cert IV in Companion Animal Services here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helen Posted June 6, 2008 Share Posted June 6, 2008 I think maybe you have just seen the 'other side' of e-collars . here are some links http://www.k9events.com/e/Ecollar_IAABCJou...2007%5B1%5D.pdf http://www.k9events.com/e/E_collar_Article.pdf http://www.k9events.com/Shock_Collars.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalandLibby Posted June 6, 2008 Share Posted June 6, 2008 (edited) WalandLibby did you study with Delta overseas? Was wondering because I read your website: Cert IV in Behavioural Dog Training through the Delta Society in 2003/04 I don't think they offer this in Aus?.....they only do a Cert IV in Companion Animal Services here. No, I did it here. I'm pretty sure the US Delta society doesn't offer an equivalent course. (Although I'm planning on starting a course with CASI soon - can't wait.)They've changed the name to Companion Animal Services since I did it. Edited June 6, 2008 by WalandLibby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted June 6, 2008 Share Posted June 6, 2008 KJA .... How many stim levels does the collar that you purchased, have? I've not used the 'vibration' component of an e-collar before ..... K9 Force does report that he's found dogs are more likely to be frightened by a 'vibration' than they are of a stim that is given at the dog's working level. I agree that you should only employ an e-collar under the instruction/supervision of a trainer/behaviourist. In fact in Victoria, that is one of the restrictions you are obliged to observe. Mind you, I think other training tools such as head-collars, check chains, prong-collars (the use of which are, incidentally, banned in Victoria) should all be only used under the instruction/supervision of a trainer. Pity that you can pick some of these up in places where even those who sell them have no idea of how they should be properly used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rom Posted June 7, 2008 Share Posted June 7, 2008 I think maybe you have just seen the 'other side' of e-collars . here are some links http://www.k9events.com/e/Ecollar_IAABCJou...2007%5B1%5D.pdf http://www.k9events.com/e/E_collar_Article.pdf http://www.k9events.com/Shock_Collars.htm The Review of Current Literature in the first link was discussed at length in a thread last year....an interesting read. http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?showtopic=104842 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted June 7, 2008 Share Posted June 7, 2008 Erny not sure if the rule has changed but the latest copy of Dogs Victoria says that members are prohibited from using e-collars too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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