Teaching 'stop Bark' ?

[Luke W]

OK - I should have thought of this before I taught him to bark.

He barks on my hand signal, I click and treat. He's reasonably reliable.

But now he 'offers' barking at other opportunities.

I signal 'down'...he lies down and barks.

I signal 'sit'..he sits and barks.

He's very excitable

What's the best method to stop him from 'offering' the barking unless I signal?

Do I stop clicking and rewarding the downs/sits if he barks...he gets frustated with this method.

Do I teach a 'stop bark'? How would I do this?

Should he continue to bark until I give him the signal to stop?

At the moment, my hand signal to bark is open and close my hand, palm facing him and my shoulder level. He gives one or two barks per open/close after which time I click and treat...

Ideas?

Is there an accepted method to teach bark/stop bark/keep barking??

Thanks.

[Erny]

Luke ....

Does your dog still bark if you use a verbal command to sit or drop?

It's probably obvious to you what's occurred - your dog has sat on the command and barked. You've rewarded for the sit. It's not clear to the dog that it is only the sit you are rewarding, not the 'sit and bark'. So you need to break the 'sit' and 'drop' exercises down into increments, so that you can afford more opportunities to reward your dog JUST for the command action.

As an aside, you do need to teach a dog both "on" AND "off" switches and as you've acknowledged, you've only taught the "on" switch.

Edited May 28, 2008 by Erny

[Luke W]

Luke ....

Does your dog still bark if you use a verbal command to sit or drop?

It's probably obvious to you what's occurred - your dog has sat on the command and barked. You've rewarded for the sit. It's not clear to the dog that it is only the sit you are rewarding, not the 'sit and bark'. So you need to break the 'sit' and 'drop' exercises down into increments, so that you can afford more opportunities to reward your dog JUST for the command action.

As an aside, you do need to teach a dog both "on" AND "off" switches and as you've acknowledged, you've only taught the "on" switch.

Hehe - this training stuff is tricky!

He's sleeping at the moment - I'm not sure if he barks on the verbal sit or just the hand signal sit. I'll check that out next traiing session.

I think what happened was I was trying to extend the length of his sits/downs by delaying the click. At some point he's extended his sit length and barked just as I've clicked...bingo - he now thinks that sit means sit AND bark...DOH!

I think I understand what you are saying and I think I know what I need to do:

- I should signal sit and click as soon as the bum hits the floor...if I wait too long he starts to bark - so I need to go back to clicking immediately, rather than trying to extend the length of the sit (which was what I was doing just before I introduced the bark).

It's hard to extend the length of his sit because he starts barking really quickly if I don't immediately click for the sit. And as soon as I click his comes up from his sit to get his treat...

Tricky this training stuff. Fun though.

As for the 'off' switch...should I be traiing my dog to bark until I give the off switch or just bark while I continue to give the bark signal. IE..can the end of me signalling be the 'off' switch?

Thanks for the reply!!

[Kavik]

I knew there was a reason I didn't teach my dogs to bark on command They bark enough anyway!

[Erny]

With your additional explanation of how you have trained, this makes it easier to see ...

I think what happened was I was trying to extend the length of his sits/downs by delaying the click. At some point he's extended his sit length and barked just as I've clicked...bingo - he now thinks that sit means sit AND bark...DOH!

I think I understand what you are saying and I think I know what I need to do: - I should signal sit and click as soon as the bum hits the floor...if I wait too long he starts to bark - so I need to go back to clicking immediately, rather than trying to extend the length of the sit (which was what I was doing just before I introduced the bark).

Yes.

It's hard to extend the length of his sit because he starts barking really quickly if I don't immediately click for the sit. And as soon as I click his comes up from his sit to get his treat...

Go back to early training (ie release/reward/click once bum hits the ground). This will help to make it clear that it is the "sit" he's being rewarded for. When you are at the point (which you've moved to incrementally) of extending "sit" time, don't 'release/reward/click' if he's barking. Wait for silence, THEN 'release/reward/click'. If this means that the sit/stay (is that what you're doing?) might be longer than what he's been trained for, then reduce one of the loads - in this case, the distance between you and him. In this way you will be able to prevent an error (ie him breaking the sit) and show him the barking doesn't get the (in your case) 'click' .... it's the sitting that achieves this.

I would probably leave off doing any of the 'bark on command' trick with him for a while, until the 'sit for a length of time without barking' has been more established. Once it is, you can go back to finishing your training on this by teaching the 'quiet' (ie the 'off' switch).

Tricky this training stuff. Fun though.

Yes - it is a great way for people to come to understand how dogs learn.

As for the 'off' switch...should I be traiing my dog to bark until I give the off switch or just bark while I continue to give the bark signal. IE..can the end of me signalling be the 'off' switch?

Personally, I'd train for a particular signal to mean "don't bark/quiet". Makes for clearer training and can be carried over for practical use in other situations.

[Erny]

With your additional explanation of how you have trained, this makes it easier to see ...

I think what happened was I was trying to extend the length of his sits/downs by delaying the click. At some point he's extended his sit length and barked just as I've clicked...bingo - he now thinks that sit means sit AND bark...DOH!

I think I understand what you are saying and I think I know what I need to do: - I should signal sit and click as soon as the bum hits the floor...if I wait too long he starts to bark - so I need to go back to clicking immediately, rather than trying to extend the length of the sit (which was what I was doing just before I introduced the bark).

Yes.

It's hard to extend the length of his sit because he starts barking really quickly if I don't immediately click for the sit. And as soon as I click his comes up from his sit to get his treat...

Go back to early training (ie release/reward/click once bum hits the ground). This will help to make it clear that it is the "sit" he's being rewarded for. When you are at the point (which you've moved to incrementally) of extending "sit" time, don't 'release/reward/click' if he's barking. Wait for silence, THEN 'release/reward/click'. If this means that the sit/stay (is that what you're doing?) might be longer than what he's been trained for, then reduce one of the loads - in this case, the distance between you and him. In this way you will be able to prevent an error (ie him breaking the sit) and show him the barking doesn't get the (in your case) 'click' .... it's the sitting that achieves this.

I would probably leave off doing any of the 'bark on command' trick with him for a while, until the 'sit for a length of time without barking' has been more established. Once it is, you can go back to finishing your training on this by teaching the 'quiet' (ie the 'off' switch).

Tricky this training stuff. Fun though.

Yes - it is a great way for people to come to understand how dogs learn.

As for the 'off' switch...should I be traiing my dog to bark until I give the off switch or just bark while I continue to give the bark signal. IE..can the end of me signalling be the 'off' switch?

Personally, I'd train for a particular signal to mean "don't bark/quiet". Makes for clearer training and can be carried over for practical use in other situations.

Edited May 28, 2008 by Erny

[Luke W]

Go back to early training (ie release/reward/click once bum hits the ground). This will help to make it clear that it is the "sit" he's being rewarded for. When you are at the point (which you've moved to incrementally) of extending "sit" time, don't 'release/reward/click' if he's barking. Wait for silence, THEN 'release/reward/click'. If this means that the sit/stay (is that what you're doing?) ....snip...

I'm not yet trying to teach stay - He tends to often break his sit as soon as I start reach for his treat. That's what I'm trying to avoid by delaying the click.

I don't even have a release command yet.

I'm going to have to do some reading on stay and release components. I'm not quite sure I understand how they should be used and taught. For example...

if I say sit, should he remain sitting until I give a release command? If so, doesn't that negate the need for a 'stay' command...? And what do I do if he breaks the sit to target the reward (remembering I haven't taught stay yet).

I need to have a think when my mind is a bit fresher - just got back from puppy school - we are both tired.

Thanks again, much appreciated.

[Erny]

I'm not yet trying to teach stay - He tends to often break his sit as soon as I start reach for his treat. That's what I'm trying to avoid by delaying the click.

Avoid reaching for the treat UNTIL you've clicked. The click, which is simply a replacement sound for a marker word, means "job done well, food is on its way".

I don't even have a release command yet.

I use a release command and I begin teaching this to the dogs I train, from the get-go. Not everyone uses a release word. I included the words "release/reward/click" not to mean you necessarily do all of those, but you do what it is that suits the method of training you've adopted.

if I say sit, should he remain sitting until I give a release command?

If you are going to train that "x command" means "x command" unless "x command" is changed to "y command" or unless you (ie dog) is released, then yes, what you've written is what the goal of training is. You start by giving the command and preventing him from making an error (ie breaking) before you've given the release word. Initially, it is about building word association - getting the dog used to hearing your release word before there is opportunity for him to move from the command. He comes to note that the release word is always followed by your 'congratulations' for a job well done. I don't use a clicker for general training, but to many, their dogs are taught (inadvertantly or no) that the 'click' represents the dog's cue that the exercise is over and that the dog is free to move around or whatever.

If so, doesn't that negate the need for a 'stay' command...?

Yes.

And what do I do if he breaks the sit to target the reward (remembering I haven't taught stay yet).

In the 'teaching phase', you work to avoid error. You set your pup up to win.

If pup does make an error (our fault), I'd give a NRM (non-reward marker word) and return pup to position. No reward given. Wait for suitable time (according to pup's training level/capability) and release (or click or whatever it is that you have adopted to do).

Edited May 28, 2008 by Erny

[Luke W]

I understand that the click is just a marker...'correct behaviour, food coming...'

I'll need to formulate my thoughts in a reply.

I need to think about the sequence of events and how they should be ordered...the elements I see are:

Cue, Signal, He sits, he breaks or he doesn't break, the NRM, the marker, the treat, the release, and how it fits with a stay command...

I'm probably going to have to draw a flowchart

As a side note...when I move to an intermittent reward schedule (to fade the food), I still click right? And to avoid the dog thinking click, no food = incorrect and click, food = correct, I use the NRM to mark the incorrect behaviour so he still understand click = correct even if food doens't follow.

Gunna have to hit the books I think.

[squeak]

As a side note...when I move to an intermittent reward schedule (to fade the food), I still click right? And to avoid the dog thinking click, no food = incorrect and click, food = correct, I use the NRM to mark the incorrect behaviour so he still understand click = correct even if food doens't follow.

This one depends on your school of thought. "Clicker trainers" teach that EVERY time you click food should follow, otherwise your click is weakened as a conditioned reinforcer. However, I have seen other people train as you have suggested - click means correct, but food doesn't necessarily follow, when the move to an intermittent reward schedule. I would suggest that when they started doing this, that they moved fairly slowly - click, reward, click, no reward, click reward, click reward, etc, so that the dog doesn't really think too much about missing the reward as most of the time they still receive it.

I would be very interested to hear Erny's and Cosmolo's thoughts on this.

[Kavik]

I do the click always = reward. You can start using other things as the reward instead of food (ie pats/praise/release to sniff etc) so you don't break down the click association.

[corvus]

I do the click always = reward. You can start using other things as the reward instead of food (ie pats/praise/release to sniff etc) so you don't break down the click association.

I was going to do that, but now I have two dogs looking for rewards whenever I click when only one of them has done something I want to click. I've been saying their names before rewarding, but it's confusing for them. I want one of those clickers that has 4 different noises. I'm now training separately in the interests of helping two non-clicker-savvy dogs figure out what the hell is going on, but sometimes I call one over and work with them while the other waits or whatever and then call the other one over. That seems to be less confusing for them.

Would you be able to just teach a quiet signal and then pair it with the sit so you give the quiet command, then ask for a sit? It might at least help tell the dog what you want. I taught Penny quiet when she was a pup the same way I taught speak, just rewarding for the quiet before speak until she understood the difference.

[Kavik]

I train one at a time so it doesn't confuse them.

[squeak]

** bump ** still hoping for a reply from Erny.

[Luke W]

Jean Donaldson in The Culture Clash says:

"And, if you are reinforcing established behavior on an intermittant schedule - let's say, one out of five times - you click only on the trials you will be dispensing a tangible reinforcer on. The click-treat relationship is a classical one, where there are no schedules, only partial/weaker conditioning. The intermittant schedule concerns numbers of behaviours per reinforcer (click-treat pair). The click and the treart are an inseperable pair."

She goes on to discuss "Low-Grade Reinforcers":

"In formal animal traiing such as marine-mammal traiing or conditioning exotics in zoos to facilitate their handling for medical or maintenance purposes, the use of conditioned and primary reinforcers is pretty well all thet is used. In dog training, this is the most important feedback tool but there are others as well. This is where priase comes into it's own. It can function as a signal to the dog that he is on the right track towards getting a click and a primary. It can 'prop up' a long duration behavior in order to increase tolerence of duration between primaries, as well as allowing faster gains in parameters like distance, distraction-proofing and multiple choise behaviors. Dogs learn that praise means they are 'getting warmer'"

Good enough for me.

So it's

Cue Sit

He Sits.

"Good boy"

Cue Down

He downs

"Good Boy"

Cue stand

He stands

"Good boy"

Cue down

He downs

"Good Boy"

Cue bark

He barks

"Good Boy"

Cue Sit

He sits

Click

Treat

Edited May 29, 2008 by Luke W

[Erny]

As a side note...when I move to an intermittent reward schedule (to fade the food), I still click right? And to avoid the dog thinking click, no food = incorrect and click, food = correct, I use the NRM to mark the incorrect behaviour so he still understand click = correct even if food doens't follow.

This one depends on your school of thought. "Clicker trainers" teach that EVERY time you click food should follow, otherwise your click is weakened as a conditioned reinforcer. However, I have seen other people train as you have suggested - click means correct, but food doesn't necessarily follow, when the move to an intermittent reward schedule. I would suggest that when they started doing this, that they moved fairly slowly - click, reward, click, no reward, click reward, click reward, etc, so that the dog doesn't really think too much about missing the reward as most of the time they still receive it.

I would be very interested to hear Erny's and Cosmolo's thoughts on this.

I have refrained from commenting too much on the training methodology here, because that wasn't what the thread was initially started for. In addition, it is about what works best for the dog and owner.

I don't train with a clicker (although I've used one now and again for certain problematic behaviours) but I do use the word "yes" to indicate the behaviour was what I was after and "free" as the dog's release word, telling him he is back on his own time/exercise complete.

Most 'clicker' trainers (which is really only using the clicker sound in place of a word) I have seen, use the clicker to signify the equivalent of my "yes" and "free" together. In other words, they often don't train for the release as separate.

IMO it really doesn't matter whether the dog is trained to understand the 'click' means "this is the behaviour I want, but you're still under the command" and then a release word OR whether you might chose to train for the word "yes" to signify "that is the behaviour I want, but you're still under the command" and then a 'click' to signify a release OR whether you might chose to train for a 'click' to signify "that is the behaviour I want and the exercise is over".

IMO though, whatever you chose to signify the "exercise over you are now released for your good job" should be paired with the higher value reward (eg. food/tug .... oops! not allowed to "tug" in Victoria for fear of causing your dog to be declared as a "dangerous dog" !!! :rolleyes:). The signal you chose to use to indicate the dog has done what you want but exercise not finished (in otherwords, an encourager feedback) should be a lower key/less distracting (but pleasing, all the same) signal.

As an aside, it doesn't matter WHAT you decide the 'click' sound should represent to the dog. Provided you are consistent.

Have I explained/answered your query Squeak?

It has been a long but fruitful day.

ETA: Re-reading, I see I haven't fully completed an answer ...

I don't necessarily train with food treats .... it much depends on the dog. Some dogs have a strong pack drive so I use pack interaction as the dog's reward. But let's assume I did use food.

I would say "free" and give my dog a food treat. I would run this on a continuous schedule of reinforcement, initially.

When the dog has learnt the exercise, I switch to intermittant, gradually increasing (but simultaneously randomising) the duration between 'food treated' exercises.

Depending on how you've chosen to use the clicker, there is no reason you cannot do the same.

A dog learns faster on a continuous schedule of reinforcement. But a continuous schedule of reinforcement is more open to extinction.

A dog learns slower on an intermittent schedule of reinforcement. But an intermittent schedule of reinforcement is less open to extinction.

This is why, when the dog is in the 'teaching' phase, the continuous schedule is recommended.

And once the dog has entered the 'training phase' the intermittent schedule is gradually introduced.

If the dog did not complete the exercise (eg. did not sit on command) I would not click at all, I would use a NRM and try again. Assuming you're using "reward based training" methodology, you might walk away from your dog and try it later. Not suggesting this is what I do .....

I would only 'click' (or give the dog's release command - which is the dog's 'pay cheque' for a job well done) IF he's performed the exercise.

Edited May 30, 2008 by Erny

[squeak]

Thakns Erny and sorry to the OP if I have taken the thread off-topic - I gave my input as I felt that was was the OP was asking, so sorry if I was mistaken.

I am still very much learning how to train and am always interested in how other people train and why they choose to train that way. Doesn't always mean that I will choose to change how I train, but hopefully gives me a greater understanding of training by making me look at how I train.

[Erny]

Thakns Erny and sorry to the OP if I have taken the thread off-topic - I gave my input as I felt that was was the OP was asking, so sorry if I was mistaken.

No .... I only meant that I did not wish to influence or be seen to influence the OP as to the training methodology the OP's chosen to follow. Especially as the OP is going to puppy school but also because that's not what was originally asked for. Unless I identify something critically wrong, I tend to refrain from confusing matters by offering different training ideas that might conflict with those being taught by instruction.

I wasn't suggesting you shouldn't have brought it up, Squeak .

Speaking of puppy school ...... I don't know how old your pup is LukeW, but don't forget that pups have the attention span of a gnat and you should not expect too much too soon. Very short exercises and frequent short sessions, along with a good mix of socialisation to our worldly things is best :D. The KIS principal applies .

I am still very much learning how to train and am always interested in how other people train and why they choose to train that way. Doesn't always mean that I will choose to change how I train, but hopefully gives me a greater understanding of training by making me look at how I train.

And that's great, Squeak. It's how you learn.

I don't have a 'preferred' method as such .... I'll coach people to train depending on what suits their dog and themselves and depending on what they wish to achieve.

Edited May 30, 2008 by Erny

[Luke W]

Thakns Erny and sorry to the OP if I have taken the thread off-topic - I gave my input as I felt that was was the OP was asking, so sorry if I was mistaken.

I am still very much learning how to train and am always interested in how other people train and why they choose to train that way. Doesn't always mean that I will choose to change how I train, but hopefully gives me a greater understanding of training by making me look at how I train.

No problem squeak - useful information all around. I'm happy to learn as much as I can too.

For what it's worth he's barking less on sits and downs, but barking more than he was before I taught him - I guess it's just another one of the behaviors he's got to offer :-) I reckon in a week I'll have sorted out the barking 'not on command'.

I'm not overly concerned - when I put the effort in, he's pretty maleable.

[Lablover]

Thakns Erny and sorry to the OP if I have taken the thread off-topic - I gave my input as I felt that was was the OP was asking, so sorry if I was mistaken.

I am still very much learning how to train and am always interested in how other people train and why they choose to train that way. Doesn't always mean that I will choose to change how I train, but hopefully gives me a greater understanding of training by making me look at how I train.

No problem squeak - useful information all around. I'm happy to learn as much as I can too.

For what it's worth he's barking less on sits and downs, but barking more than he was before I taught him - I guess it's just another one of the behaviors he's got to offer :-) I reckon in a week I'll have sorted out the barking 'not on command'.

I'm not overly concerned - when I put the effort in, he's pretty maleable.

Hey LukeW,

This link may help (I could lend you the Bob Bailey DVDs if you like? - really really really good). Reminder the best trainers IMHO, are those who can give feedback (to the dogs) well, whether this is a god given gift or learnt, no idea LOL.

http://www.clickerdogs.com/trainingreminders.htm