Schutz Own Worst Enemy?

[Michelle3]

Here's the 'short' story...

I have been trying to find someone who has done Schutz (any level, any time) to teach me how to do it with my new dobergirl (who has only just been born). I'm not interested in competing. I got some advice already here from DOL (thank you) and I'm getting some DVD's and a book.

I live in Townsville, Nth Qld. There is no Schutz club up this way. That's OK, I might start one myself if I get involved enough, just a possibility. I don't mind being part of something if others want to compete. I will do anything if a dog is involved

After encountering various levels of ignorance and only one person who wanted to help from the local obdience clubs, I contacted a Schtuz club. I won't name names because it's not relevant and I don't want to start a war since I assume Schutz is a small world and mostly everyone will know each other. I just thought that they might know someone who has moved up this way, friend of a friend, someone's cousin, whatever.

I was told that if I wanted to do Schutz, I should move down south as I wouldn't find anyone with any genuine understanding up here, and I shouldn't expect much help from Schutz clubs if I don't want to compete.

Great. How is Schutz going to increase in popularity with an attitude like that? I am actually interested, possibly a person who could start a club where none exists. Instead of offering some support, I get the closed shop mentality. How does anyone else know (since I don't) that I'm not going to find someone who has moved up here that used to do Schutz, or that I might eventually find or form a small group of interested people?

The only way to grow the sport is to leave every door open, every contact from an interested person could lead to something. I'm posting this in case (a) anyone does have a mate up this way who might help and (b) if anyone is in a Schtuz club, perhaps you might be able to tell me if this is the attitude or did I just strike the wrong person? Is there a reason for the attitude I don't know about?

Sorry for the rant, I'm just peed off.

Anyways, moving forward; there's a pretty big army presence up here, and I know they have dogs, so do the police so I'm going to ask around if any handlers/trainers have Schutz experience. I'm thinking what they do with their dogs is similar (?). My only worry with this approach is that they might think I am some kind of weirdo making a 'cold' contact.

(I am a weirdo - but lets just keep that between ourselves OK )

[Kavik]

I've found the Schutzhund club my way to be very friendly and helpful. They were impressed with Diesel's heeling and I felt welcome to come back, even though he does not have the right temperament for the character test.

What army/security/security etc do with their dogs is not the same, Schutzhund is a competition and quite stylised and specific, and they are not likely to know the rules etc.

[cramet]

asking around and showing that you are keen to do it and do it well would be a good way to start like you said some handler/trainers have other dogs they train with not just there work k9

the other thing is trainers that train sec and protection k9 are oftern up for a challenge (not all) the difference between dog sport and protection dog is one is trained for all most any thing goes and the other is train for a routine they have both have a high disapline needs to be successful

and if the trainers are willing to laurn the rules with you your nearly there

this is the short hand vers the long hand vers is a lot harder to explane

Edited May 23, 2008 by cramet

[Michelle3]

asking around and showing that you are keen to do it and do it well would be a good way to start like you said some handler/trainers have other dogs they train with not just there work k9

the other thing is trainers that train sec and protection k9 are oftern up for a challenge (not all) the difference between dog sport and protection dog is one is trained for all most any thing goes and the other is train for a routine they have both have a high disapline needs to be successful

and if the trainers are willing to laurn the rules with you your nearly there

this is the short hand vers the long hand vers is a lot harder to explane

Umm, so...the main thing with Schutz is the actual rules? Like the challenge is in doing the work but also in making sure you meet the rules? Whereas with sec and protection dogs, there are no rules as such?

So, it would be like a police dog tracking a criminal just has to find the guy - not worry about how long it took or if he had to circle 12 times to pick up a scent. Whereas the Schtuz dog has to not only find the guy, but has the 'added degree of difficulty' of meeting the rules. And THAT'S the actual challenge that people are more interested in?

But, if, like me you're not interested in competing then the rules don't matter as much as the challenge of getting the training right so the dog can find the person (or whatever the task is).

Well, maybe I will find someone who is interested int he challenge as you say, here's hoping.

[Kavik]

Umm, so...the main thing with Schutz is the actual rules? Like the challenge is in doing the work but also in making sure you meet the rules? Whereas with sec and protection dogs, there are no rules as such?

So, it would be like a police dog tracking a criminal just has to find the guy - not worry about how long it took or if he had to circle 12 times to pick up a scent. Whereas the Schtuz dog has to not only find the guy, but has the 'added degree of difficulty' of meeting the rules. And THAT'S the actual challenge that people are more interested in?

But, if, like me you're not interested in competing then the rules don't matter as much as the challenge of getting the training right so the dog can find the person (or whatever the task is).

Well, maybe I will find someone who is interested int he challenge as you say, here's hoping.

Something like that! :rolleyes: Schutzhund has patterns and routines you have to do, like obedience, heelwork can be quite stylised, security people don't tend to teach attention heeling, as they want the dog focussed ahead and on job and not on the handler as much. They still have to walk at heel but not the same.

Bitework is also quite stylised, they are only presented with an arm etc, from what I have seen security is not as interested about style but just getting the job done. They may not know how to teach a bark and hold (well, police might? but I doubt security will) or the transport.

[cramet]

kavik you are right with what you are said

excpt with the bark and hold but thats my opinion

[Kavik]

cramet what part? I know one security dog that has a bark and hold but no others, don't know about police dogs - do they do a bark and hold or bark and bite? I recall a thread about it but can't remember what was said.

[cramet]

under the trainer i use all of his dogs are trained to bark and hold i couldnt tell you a number because i havnt asked him

but with police dogs jeff jones would be able to answer that

but i know thay dont use bite and hold the only place that i know of that still use that method is the US and they are now starting to fase that out

Edited May 23, 2008 by cramet

[Kavik]

That's cool about your trainer! Is it different to a Schutzhund bark and hold?

[cramet]

its done the same

dog sits and barks until person moves when that happens the dog gets the bite

Edited May 23, 2008 by cramet

[Kavik]

Cool :rolleyes:

[JENCOL]

I am not involved in Shutzhund, however have a close friend who is starting out in Shutzhund.

From what I understand she also had difficulties getting into the 'in' group. She had to prove herself to them as really being interested and not just a fly by night. It has taken her years ( I mean about 5 years) of maintaining contacts and building relationships with those involved. I think she finally is getting somewhere though. She also had the difficulty with the tyranny of distance, at one point she travelled over 3 hours to attend class and was met with people who where very wary and cautious although helpful.

Remember there are alot of naive people when it comes to Shutzhund and alot of people continue to view it as illegal and detrimental to the canine movement. I can understand why the Shutzhund community is as cautious as they are.

Good Luck and I hope you get somewhere!

Edited May 23, 2008 by JENCOL

[Just Midol]

95% of security dogs I've met so far don't know sit or drop, I think bite work is beyond most of them :rolleyes:

[cramet]

i would belive that midol

and its those people that give our industrie a bad name and makes it harder for us to get work because some (not all) people think he dogs are a danger not a deterant

[Just Midol]

Yep, and unfortunately from what I can gather the new laws coming in will only stop new idiots coming in, but won't get rid of the current idiots.

Companies views on dogs also need to change. IMO business owners (security businesses that is) should be required to undertake some sort of intro to dog handling course - then maybe they wouldn't have Huskies working for them (not mine.)

Edited May 23, 2008 by Lord Midol

[Jeff Jones]

under the trainer i use all of his dogs are trained to bark and hold i couldnt tell you a number because i havnt asked him

but with police dogs jeff jones would be able to answer that

I think you have answered well enough for both of us. :p

95% of security dogs I've met so far don't know sit or drop, I think bite work is beyond most of them

Bitework is definantly not beyond Cramets dogs capabilities, cramet has a very :rolleyes: rotty partner.

[cramet]

thanks jeff

[Lablover]

Many people live far away from the best possible trainers.

I would suggest, spending dollars and learning from the cream of the crop. Schutzhund is not........approved by the ANKC, and I would assume for this reason, a little behind closed doors.

[cramet]

there are some good trainer doing schutzhund at the moment but in saying that there are some bad

there is a reason for it not be registered i couldnt tell you much on it but jeff jones can

there have been dog groups trying to fix that for years

[Michelle3]

Thanks guys for your comments. Now I am little clearer about the whole thing.

I didn't realise there was the ANKC thing. I'm glad it's not just me Jenicol. This is another reason why I don't enjoy competing, all the 'stuff' people go on with. "Those who can, do, and those who can't, criticise".

I must admit when I was looking into it I was pretty disgusted by the cowboy types I saw, but I have grown up around similar types with pig hunting (not myself, don't approve but have erm - distant relations that do it) so I just ignored them.

Meanwhile, still waiting for the DVD's to arrive. This morning I got a package from the NDTF for Cert III in Dog Behaviour and Training, I won't be able to do it 'cos of the travel but they were nice enough to send it anyway.