Missy And Lucy

[Justchillin]

Hi all,

My house mates have told me while I'm away from the home Missy and Lucy are playing very roughly, fighting at times and I have done a little research on how I can tackle this but I'd like to see if I can get some ideas from anyone who has some advice - thanks

Do I have to treat Lucy as the dominant dog and i.e pat her first? I have seen a lot of suggestion to ideas like this, that the dominant dog must be treated this way.

Lucy (lab x border collie) was my first dog, she is 18 months and Missy (lab x kelpie) I have had for a week, she is 2.

Edited May 22, 2008 by Lucy'sRun

[Borderpower]

Whitch one did you get first?

When i got a second dog, my mum told me that I should always put my first dog first example patting,feeding,grooming and playtime. I'm not sure how true that is, but it does make sense in a way my second dog NEVER left out and I loved both equal, I'm not sure if you should praising Lucy as you are the dominant pack leader. But thats just my opinion.

[laffi]

I think you should first try to determine if they are playing or fighting. Mine two play and make noises like it's the last fight, but they are just playing. Sometimes it's very hard to tell the difference and people can think they are fighting.

Edited May 23, 2008 by laffi

[persephone]

When Hamlet and our guys play..you could swear there is blood being shed!

Some dogs growl and play fight very loudly.

Your two 'may' be having the odd scuffle ..they are still a very new 'pack'..and will be sorting themselves out.

All I would suggest is to make sure they both are tired when you leave..and urge you not to leave any 'high-value' toys with them....

maybe ask neighbours to record any fight noises?

Hope it's only loud play

[Reddii]

I agree with the others - make sure you know whether they are fighting or playing, sometimes there is not a lot of difference to a non-dog person. I know we were on our neighbours deck watching my two play in the back yard and one of their friends passed a comment, "Oh my God, they are savage aren't they, they're really going for it". I had to laugh, they weren't even playing roughly - if it ever got serious!!

We have had a few spats over time, but they are now sorted in their own pack order. I don't think it is your job to try and determine the order, you are the boss, threat them that way and let them sort out the order for themselves. As someone said under no circumstances should you leave high value toys or treats with them when they are unsupervised - just asking for trouble.

I think I might have read on here - you don't speak dog so don't try and tell them what to do wrt pack order. It will just prolong the problem if you pick it the wrong way.

[Justchillin]

Thanks for the replys, I've never owned 2 dogs before so I am new to all this owning 2 dogs thing so I have a bit to learn (I'm at the right place).

Before I go to work they are both walked 1-2 hours a day which yeah would help settle them while I'm at work. Also it probably is just play, I'm just paranoid I guess as are my house mates because it's instinct to want to help or stop something we percieve as fighting and harming another.

So you think it's best to keep toys inside while I'm at work or away from the house?

I'm finding eating times an issue, Missy will consume her meal much quicker than Lucy and she'll go to Lucy's bowl unless I'm there to redirect her so I think I may need to feed one inside and one out unless I'm going to invest in a dog create I guess.

I must say they are pretty good walking together, both walk at the same speed and in general they will walk side by side, obviously one will stop for a sniff and the other won't so it's stopping and starting a bit and Missy will get a bit excited and shoot in various directions at time especially if people are around but yeah it's not too bad.

[poodlefan]

Whitch one did you get first?

When i got a second dog, my mum told me that I should always put my first dog first example patting,feeding,grooming and playtime. I'm not sure how true that is, but it does make sense in a way my second dog NEVER left out and I loved both equal, I'm not sure if you should praising Lucy as you are the dominant pack leader. But thats just my opinion.

We don't determine a dog's order in pack hierarchy - they do. The first dog into the home may not be the dominant dog. Trying to make it higher in the order would not work and would create ongoing conflict between dogs.

Personally, LR if you have concerns about their interaction when you cannot supervise them, I'd be separating them when you aren't home.

As both dogs are adult females, you may be in for some conflict between them until a firm order of dominance is established.

Are either of the dogs being wounded? Do you friends know that dogs can play very roughly and it can seem like fighting.. ?

[Justchillin]

Whitch one did you get first?

When i got a second dog, my mum told me that I should always put my first dog first example patting,feeding,grooming and playtime. I'm not sure how true that is, but it does make sense in a way my second dog NEVER left out and I loved both equal, I'm not sure if you should praising Lucy as you are the dominant pack leader. But thats just my opinion.

We don't determine a dog's order in pack hierarchy - they do. The first dog into the home may not be the dominant dog. Trying to make it higher in the order would not work and would create ongoing conflict between dogs.

Personally, LR if you have concerns about their interaction when you cannot supervise them, I'd be separating them when you aren't home.

As both dogs are adult females, you may be in for some conflict between them until a firm order of dominance is established.

Are either of the dogs being wounded? Do you friends know that dogs can play very roughly and it can seem like fighting.. ?

Yeah I'm not saying pat Lucy first because she was the first in my home, I have read and have an idea she might be the dominant one from the way I see them interacting etc, but yeah there's always a problem if I get it wrong.

I'm a bit unsure of the best way to go about seperating them though - any ideas? i am looking at http://www.dealsdirect.com.au/p/octagonal-...196cm-diameter/ for when I go to my parents place and need to keep them in a defined area, this wouldn't really be fair to one of the dogs if I had them in this the whole 9 hours I was away at work.

[cwm]

Hi Ben,

With my last two dogs, we had an older ridgeback boy, and then I also brought home a kelpie x girl from the pound, after our previous Ridgeback girl had to be put down (at this point our boy went into deep depression for 6 months, not a wag, not a smile - it was heartbreaking - despite his 'new companion'.

He was the slowest eater in the world, and as he was our oldest 'child' he was deemed the most important. Therefore, he was allowed to eat his food first, while Suki our kelpie x had to sit and wait. When he was nearly finished, she got the okay to eat hers. Which was like a vaccuum in two seconds flat :rolleyes: (I won't mention the large spray of saliva in the semi circle around her from her looking to us and back to her bowl waiting for the okay).

She was always trying to be the dominant one though - not in fighting with old darby, our ridgey (he had a thing about him that no dog tried to mess with him), but always trying to be in front on our walks, always trying to round him up and chew on his ankles..trying to push in front of him to say hi.. all those sweet things, so we always made sure we said hi to him first etc.

When our old boy died, she became the happiest dog on earth. As a single dog she absolutely became one of the sweetest dogs around...it was quite unbelievable the change in her - and until that point, I would never have believed anyone had they told me that some dogs are happier as 'single children'.

I guess, the point I am trying to make is, you really need to be sure and find out what the extent of their noises are during the day - whether it's play or real. If it is real, you may find you might have to make a decision one way or the other as to whether to persist or have to separate them. We don't necessarily like everyone we meet, and I guess we shouldn't expect our dogs to always love the other one we force on them either!

Caroline

[Justchillin]

Hi Ben,

With my last two dogs, we had an older ridgeback boy, and then I also brought home a kelpie x girl from the pound, after our previous Ridgeback girl had to be put down (at this point our boy went into deep depression for 6 months, not a wag, not a smile - it was heartbreaking - despite his 'new companion'.

He was the slowest eater in the world, and as he was our oldest 'child' :D he was deemed the most important. Therefore, he was allowed to eat his food first, while Suki our kelpie x had to sit and wait. When he was nearly finished, she got the okay to eat hers. Which was like a vaccuum in two seconds flat (I won't mention the large spray of saliva in the semi circle around her from her looking to us and back to her bowl waiting for the okay).

She was always trying to be the dominant one though - not in fighting with old darby, our ridgey (he had a thing about him that no dog tried to mess with him), but always trying to be in front on our walks, always trying to round him up and chew on his ankles..trying to push in front of him to say hi.. all those sweet things, so we always made sure we said hi to him first etc.

When our old boy died, she became the happiest dog on earth. As a single dog she absolutely became one of the sweetest dogs around...it was quite unbelievable the change in her - and until that point, I would never have believed anyone had they told me that some dogs are happier as 'single children'.

I guess, the point I am trying to make is, you really need to be sure and find out what the extent of their noises are during the day - whether it's play or real. If it is real, you may find you might have to make a decision one way or the other as to whether to persist or have to separate them. We don't necessarily like everyone we meet, and I guess we shouldn't expect our dogs to always love the other one we force on them either!

Caroline

thanks for the input, you sure have a point there ! I'll keep an eye on things and see how things unfold.

Cheers

Ben

[nanna]

Hi Ben,

I have a one-dog household so I don't have any personal experience, but I recently went to a dog-aggression seminar which had some really good tips for keeping the peace between dogs in the same household....

The vet/behaviourist who gave the seminar stressed the importance of the owner deciding how you want your pack/household to operate. You're the leader and in charge of the pack so it is not necessary to promote or encourage dominance relationships between the dogs. Once you've got a picture of how you want your dogs to interact then you reward when you see that behaviour in action (like both dogs sitting quietly on mats inside, or waiting politely for their food etc) and prevent any behaviour that's inconsistent with that picture.

The presenter was big on the use of 'time-outs' as a way of dealing with inappropriate behaviour. For example, when she's playing with her dogs in the backyard, if one of them is being pushy or not waiting their turn, they just get quietly taken by the collar and put inside for a few minutes while she goes back out to continue to play with the other dog. So her dogs appear to have learnt really good self-control as they know that if they act like a goose, the thing they want (a turn at playing with the ball, hose, whatever) will be removed.

With the feeding, she also suggested having a really high-value treat in your hand and giving it to the dog at the end of the meal. So that way the dog learns that when it finishes eating it comes to you as opposed to hassling the other dog. Obviously, you may need to do your feeding separately at first so they figure it out without distractions.

Good luck!

[Justchillin]

How can you tell the difference between dog play and fighting? I think my girls are playing but just a bit too roughly at times, their teeth begin to show a lot more, they bite each other a lot around the neck and body and they tend to yelp at times and Lucy will sometimes sit on Missy while she squirms... it just worries me..

[Monah]

How can you tell the difference between dog play and fighting? I think my girls are playing but just a bit too roughly at times, their teeth begin to show a lot more, they bite each other a lot around the neck and body and they tend to yelp at times and Lucy will sometimes sit on Missy while she squirms... it just worries me..

Mine do this, and pin each other down etc. You do need to keep it under control as a very over excited dog can end up biting just as some kids can play then all of a sudden you have a fight on your hands ( just making a point, not saying kids and dogs are the same ). If one of mine gets over the top, I just stop the play. I am in charge, I decide. I think if things are getting out of hand when you aren't there, you may need to separate, but it's only been a little while, so may improve. Mine are separated if I'm not home, spin and acd in one room, viz in the rest of the house (with 4 cats). I would never leave them all together. I have had 3 dogs all together for 15 years without a problem, but not ATM.

I think if your dogs were fighting, you'd know! There's screaming and usually some blood somewhere, Mine show their teeth when playing, but I know when things may get out of hand. Check your dogs for small punture wounds etc., I'm sure if no blood appears they have not used any force. Just always supervise, things can escalate very quickly when they get too excited and idiotic. Good luck :rolleyes:

With the food, just feed separately if you are worried, there's nothing wrong with that. If they are particularly protective over certain toys, remove when you are not there. Make sure there are never any old bones etc. laying around the garden too.

I handle the top dog thing by making sure I make the decisions. We do have a top dog who does a great job, the middle one is a bit naughty! so I put her in her place, the lowest is not a problem and avoids trouble. My middle dog knows where the line in the sand is. I have never let her decide this for herself as I don't think she'd draw one!!!!!!!!!!!

[Justchillin]

How can you tell the difference between dog play and fighting? I think my girls are playing but just a bit too roughly at times, their teeth begin to show a lot more, they bite each other a lot around the neck and body and they tend to yelp at times and Lucy will sometimes sit on Missy while she squirms... it just worries me..

Mine do this, and pin each other down etc. You do need to keep it under control as a very over excited dog can end up biting just as some kids can play then all of a sudden you have a fight on your hands ( just making a point, not saying kids and dogs are the same ). If one of mine gets over the top, I just stop the play. I am in charge, I decide. I think if things are getting out of hand when you aren't there, you may need to separate, but it's only been a little while, so may improve. Mine are separated if I'm not home, spin and acd in one room, viz in the rest of the house (with 4 cats). I would never leave them all together. I have had 3 dogs all together for 15 years without a problem, but not ATM.

I think if your dogs were fighting, you'd know! There's screaming and usually some blood somewhere, Mine show their teeth when playing, but I know when things may get out of hand. Check your dogs for small punture wounds etc., I'm sure if no blood appears they have not used any force. Just always supervise, things can escalate very quickly when they get too excited and idiotic. Good luck :rolleyes:

With the food, just feed separately if you are worried, there's nothing wrong with that. If they are particularly protective over certain toys, remove when you are not there. Make sure there are never any old bones etc. laying around the garden too.

I handle the top dog thing by making sure I make the decisions. We do have a top dog who does a great job, the middle one is a bit naughty! so I put her in her place, the lowest is not a problem and avoids trouble. My middle dog knows where the line in the sand is. I have never let her decide this for herself as I don't think she'd draw one!!!!!!!!!!!

Hi Monah thanks for the advice, very detailed so thanks

Feeding is getting better, I have learnt with bones I need to seperate each other entirely (house and yard) then take any bones left over.

Their play is a bit rough sometimes, they show teeth, I'm sure it's just play that gets a bit rough at times but yeah like yourself I show I am top dog and stop the fight. I have solved the seperation problem when I am at work, I have been given the all clear to take one with me so I'll alternate - they'll go great working with the disabled guys I look after but a bit too much if they were together.

Slowly they are getting better with each other though, I'm just a protective worry wort

Cheers

Ben

[Monah]

Thats great Ben. You're not over protective, it's sensible to be careful. Dogs are unpredictable, that's just the way it is. Being aware is fantastic and I'm sure if you keep up the way you are now, all will be fine. I wish you and your dogs the best of luck and a long happy time together. :rolleyes: