The Protein Debate

[rivergem]

For those who want to try Orijen or another dog food but might be worried about the high Protein percentage. Also google it - there are many articles which conclude that high protein is not a bad thing, you just have to be aware of where the protein comes from (protein from meat is fantastic - protein from ingredients such as wheat/corn/rice not so good), the bioavailability of it and the balance along with other nutrients/minerals etc. In the case of Orijen, the proteins come from excellent sources - and the small percentage of ash along with other ingredients/minerals etc makes it look great to me. NOTE: I haven't started feeding this food yet, this info is what I've come across in my research to make sure I am 100% happy with feeding it - which I am

http://www.doglogic.com/debaunprotein.htm

Can Protein Cause Accelerated Bone Growth ?

A great deal of misinformation has been published about the adverse affects of protein on our animals. Large breed dogs, in particular, are believed to be adversely affected by consuming too much protein during their puppy and adolescent stages. This misconception is predicated on the hypothesis that protein accelerates bone development. Nothing could be further from the truth, if indeed, we are talking about good bio-available meat protein!

The protein molecule is the fundamental building block of all cellular structure in the body, whether we are talking about bone, muscle, organ, skin tissue or hair. The carnivore,, in particular, requires a large amount of protein. The body takes this protein and appropriately converts it into one of five categories so that it may be used wherever the body requires it.

Crude protein Verses usable protein.

It should be pointed out that the crude protein values listed on the pet food label do not indicate the amount of usable protein in a food, but rather the overall protein usable or non-usable that is in the package. The actual usable protein called bio-available protein is often quite less, therefore; most animals using commercial food are more apt to be protein deficient than to have too much protein. Non-available protein, which comes from grains and other difficult to digest food elements, can be problematic causing a variety of health issues from protein deficiency to digestive problems to allergies, etc, therefore; the source and quality of the protein is of primary importance. In conclusion, no one can determine the actual usable protein from a pet food label.

Calories versus proteins.

Excess calories should not be confused with excess protein as many people do. They are two distinctly different things and have little to do with one another. The majority of researchers whose studies were related to bone growth malformations found that excess calories and rapid weight gain due to excessive feeding coupled with poor mineral intake is more likely to cause problems than protein itself. Young dogs raised on a natural diet such as raw meat actually tend to grow more slowly and have fewer musculoskeletal problems than dogs raised on commercial diets because the body knows how and where to put the protein it receives; it does not need human intervention. The body uses good protein in numerous ways.

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Edited May 21, 2008 by LabRADor

[Alison]

Can Protein Cause Accelerated Bone Growth ?

A great deal of misinformation has been published about the adverse affects of protein on our animals. Large breed dogs, in particular, are believed to be adversely affected by consuming too much protein during their puppy and adolescent stages. This misconception is predicated on the hypothesis that protein accelerates bone development. Nothing could be further from the truth, if indeed, we are talking about good bio-available meat protein!

What about muscle/soft tissue/etc growth that puts strain on undeveloped bones causing them to weaken and grind?

[Cavandra]

It really makes you wonder what on earth a Carnivore is supposed to eat if Protein is a bad thing ....

I have never seen "accelerated" growth in BARF fed dogs..........

[Guest Tess32]

It really makes you wonder what on earth a Carnivore is supposed to eat if Protein is a bad thing ....

I have never seen "accelerated" growth in BARF fed dogs..........

Maybe a dumb question but what would the signs of accelerated growth be?

[Alison]

It really makes you wonder what on earth a Carnivore is supposed to eat if Protein is a bad thing ....

I have never seen "accelerated" growth in BARF fed dogs..........

When thinking in terms of 'natural' feeding you also need to think about the level of exercise and energy that would have been expended in order to get that meal. A much higher protein diet would be required naturally to counteract that energy expenditure. Our dogs today just sit and drool while waiting for dinner to be served in a nice bowl, not much energy expenditure there :D

[rivergem]

Can Protein Cause Accelerated Bone Growth ?

A great deal of misinformation has been published about the adverse affects of protein on our animals. Large breed dogs, in particular, are believed to be adversely affected by consuming too much protein during their puppy and adolescent stages. This misconception is predicated on the hypothesis that protein accelerates bone development. Nothing could be further from the truth, if indeed, we are talking about good bio-available meat protein!

What about muscle/soft tissue/etc growth that puts strain on undeveloped bones causing them to weaken and grind?

Can you point me in the direction of some good sites for reference to your above question....

I tried to do some more and came up with this

http://www.urbancarnivore.com/uc_online/pages.cfm?ID=38

The idea that diets high in fat and protein cause over nutrition, especially in large breed puppies, is invalid. There is new evidence to suggest that diets high in protein and fat do not cause orthopedic problems providing intake is restricted to prevent rapid weight gain. If a puppy consumes too many calories for his energy requirements and becomes overweight, then the risk for skeletal problems increases. Feeding low protein and fat diets that contain higher ratios of carbohydrates may in fact slow growth but it may also mean a puppy isn't receiving adequate nourishment to sustain the demands of growth. Keeping a puppy lean throughout this period of development is the key. Over feeding contributes to:

- Accelerated growth rate and obesity

- Damage to developing cartilage and growth plates

- Promotes bone disorders

- Premature closure of growth plates

- Weaker bone structure

http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=48372

In addition to excessive calcium intake, researchers have shown that over nutrition can also initiate these disturbances in skeletal maturation and growth. An excess protein intake, without an excess of other nutrients revealed NOT to influence skeletal maturation and growth in growing Great Danes. (www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu.au).

I should perhaps also point out that not all high-protein diets are equal. Some foods generate high-protein by using meals, which are typically high in ash, and therefore high in mineral content of which – you guessed it – elevated levels calcium and phosphorus would be a concern to large breed puppies, and phosphorus in general for kidney health in dogs of all breeds and life-stages. The information below is taken from www.dogaware.com – a great site for general information.

Large and giant breed puppies (or any breed prone to hip dysplasia) should be fed a restricted diet to slow growth. Overfeeding encourages them to grow too fast, resulting in most of the bone and joint problems common in large breeds, including dysplasia, osteochondrosis, etc. Limit the amount you feed to keep your pup lean and slow-growing.

Never give supplemental calcium of any kind when feeding a commercial diet. Feeding an adult food to a puppy may cause excessive calcium intake, as the adult food might have more calcium for the same amount of calories than a puppy food would, while not providing the other nutrients required by puppies.

You should always feed puppies foods that are approved either for puppies or for all life stages. If you feed a food that is approved for adult dogs only, there will be inadequate amounts of protein, and improper levels of calcium and other nutrients. Large Breed Puppy Formulas may not be the answer, as they often replace protein with carbohydrates. Protein and carbohydrates contain exactly the same number of calories per gram, so reducing protein in favor of carbohydrates provides less needed nutrition without reducing calories. High protein diets are preferred, as puppies need protein to thrive and studies have shown that high protein does not lead to developmental problems, but high fat diets may contribute too many calories, leading to rapid growth.

High-Protein Diets

Contrary to many myths and popular beliefs, there is no harm in feeding a high-protein diet to dogs of any age, including puppies (see <A href="http://www.dogaware.com/dogfeeding.html#Puppies">Large and giant breed puppies below) and seniors (see Senior and overweight dogs below and my article on Diet and the Older Dog for more information). Studies have proven that protein does not cause orthopedic problems in puppies, nor lead to kidney disease in older dogs. In fact, protein is extremely beneficial: it supports the immune system and the central nervous system, contributes to wound healing, helps build lean muscle, and is required for skin and coat health.

Even most dogs with kidney disease benefit from a moderate-protein rather than low-protein diet (see my Kidney Disease web page for additional info). There are very, very few health conditions where a lower-protein diet is needed, and even then, it's extremely important to feed adequate protein, as protein malnutrition will cause the body to break down its own muscle tissue to get what it needs, leading to muscle wasting and other serious problems. Even mild protein deficiency can significantly impair immune function. Dogs who get too little protein are also more susceptible to stress, including stress from injury or infection.

Dogs thrive on protein, the more the better. There is absolutely no reason to limit the amount of protein you feed your dog. Look for foods that are high in protein, rather than the typical high-carbohydrate diets that are more commonly available. Dogs have no nutritional need for carbohydrates; they are used in dog food mostly as an inexpensive source of calories (grains are also used to supply low-quality protein in some foods), and to help bind dry food together into kibble. Studies indicate that high-protein, low-carb foods with moderate amounts of fat also help dogs lose weight better than the traditional high-carb, low-fat (and often low-protein) weight loss diets. There are a number of newer, high-protein, low-carbohydrate diets now being offered, for both adult and senior dogs. Some of these are also OK for puppies, if approved for them or for all life stages, but be careful of any with very high calcium percentages (best to stick to 2% or less calcium on a dry matter basis for large-breed puppies under the age of six months).

[Guest Tess32]

So would I interpret that to mean that the percentage of the protein in the diet should be high, and it will not effect growth negatively as long as the caloric intake is appropriate to the size of the puppy?

So if the diet is 80% protein, that's fine as long as the dog isn't getting 300 grams of food extra a day, for eg?

[rivergem]

Pretty much from everything I've read that is more or less right... protein alone does not cause (from my sources above) growth problems, it is when this is combined with things like a too high caloric intake, whacked out proportions of calcium:phos, not adequate minerals and vitamins etc etc

This said, they are talking about protein from meat sources, not grain - and for commercial dog foods it is important to look at the ash percentage as this mucks with this calcium and so on. So increasing protein alone (from the correct sources) will not attribute to accelerated growth and the subsequent issues, in particularly with large and giant breeds (as long as all other things are accounted for).

This is just what I can gather from doing a bit of research on it. :D

[Sheridan]

In terms of protein, it's good quality protein that counts rather than the amount.