Quicker On The Flyball Box?

[Reddii]

I was wondering if anyone had any idea on this.

CK is a quick boy - he's 18 months old and is running 5.1 seconds over 14 inches. I was waching him against another dog yesterday and he was consistently beating this sub 5 second dog to the box and was as quick over the hurdles on the way back, but was slower on his turn. His technique is pretty good (swimmers turn), but he seems slow coming off the box, almost like he is not strong enough to push himself off fully.

Does anyone have any ideas on how to encourage him to hurry up a little or do you think it will come with time and a bit more strengh (he is strong now and already has the 'back end of a bus', but wil obviously develop a little more).

Would appreciate your thoughts.

cheers.

Tony

[bordacollies4me]

an exercise you could try would be to place a low jump in front of the box and with you standing in front get him to jump on and bank off to a tug toy... lots of repetitions of this would build his back end up and teach him to power off the box for the toy...

[Reddii]

Thanks. Always wondered what the jump in front of the box was for when I have seen others use it.

T

an exercise you could try would be to place a low jump in front of the box and with you standing in front get him to jump on and bank off to a tug toy... lots of repetitions of this would build his back end up and teach him to power off the box for the toy...

[bordacollies4me]

some use it to get dogs to jump higher on the box...

i have the spring loaded Flyball dvd's and they use it to teach the dogs to bank off the box real fast...very early in the dogs training befor ethey get the ball... teaches them to use all there power and because they have a tug toy most dogs will drive off the box extra fast to get that toy... also at the same time would be teaching dogs to jump high on the box...

[wherezaball]

an exercise you could try would be to place a low jump in front of the box and with you standing in front get him to jump on and bank off to a tug toy... lots of repetitions of this would build his back end up and teach him to power off the box for the toy...

Yep we use this but go a little further with it.

Send the dog to the box (no ball) from about 10 - 15 away. As the dog turns on the box throw the toy away from him (straight back towards where jumps should be... dont have any in the way for a little bit) then you race the dog to the toy. Be competition for the toy and have a great game of tug when you both get it. Gradually backchain it by over one jump, turn on box back over 4 and throw the toy again, then over 2 and back over 4 again.. throw the toy....

Soon the dogs expectation will be to push off quickly to get that damn toy and beat you to it!!!!

Of course you cant throw the toy in competitions but you can at training and playing in the backyard racing the dog for it... thus increasing drive for the toy.

As BC4ME has said it is also important to jump high on the box. Creates a much better turn.

Something to think about when he "stalls" on the box.... is he doing it is because he has his reward... the ball... then thinks ok now I will go back... if so this exercise will help with that also because it increases drive for the toy.

Edited May 19, 2008 by wherezaball

[Reddii]

an exercise you could try would be to place a low jump in front of the box and with you standing in front get him to jump on and bank off to a tug toy... lots of repetitions of this would build his back end up and teach him to power off the box for the toy...

Yep we use this but go a little further with it.

Send the dog to the box (no ball) from about 10 - 15 away. As the dog turns on the box throw the toy away from him (straight back towards where jumps should be... dont have any in the way for a little bit) then you race the dog to the toy. Be competition for the toy and have a great game of tug when you both get it. Gradually backchain it by over one jump, turn on box back over 4 and throw the toy again, then over 2 and back over 4 again.. throw the toy....

Soon the dogs expectation will be to push off quickly to get that damn toy and beat you to it!!!!

Of course you cant throw the toy in competitions but you can at training and playing in the backyard racing the dog for it... thus increasing drive for the toy.

As BC4ME has said it is also important to jump high on the box. Creates a much better turn.

Something to think about when he "stalls" on the box.... is he doing it is because he has his reward... the ball... then thinks ok now I will go back... if so this exercise will help with that also because it increases drive for the toy.

Thanks WB. He doesnt 'stall' on the box as such, the reward is definitely getting back to me, combined with racing the dog in the other lane - very competitive is our boy. It's more that his turns are slower than other dogs running as quickly as he does. It could be a combination of making sure he gets the ball (not the most coordinated BC in the world) and technique so we'll work as you have suggested. I like the idea of driving for the toy - same technique we use in agility!

[whatevah]

Here is an exercise I did with Moses, which I saw on youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jApeBgWgXw

I am putting the jump further away from the box to get him to jump on and jump off.

[laffi]

Here is an exercise I did with Moses, which I saw on youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jApeBgWgXw

I am putting the jump further away from the box to get him to jump on and jump off.

that looks awesome! how did you teach him that?

[whatevah]

When I first started teaching Moses a swimmers turn. I used this method. http://www.k9station.com/turns2.htm

Here are some videos of Tia doing this method. These are the first couple of sessions with a ball on the turning board so she is a little slow.

Lesson 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYouHEM_g9I

A few days later

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUc7sFWamIw

Here are all the steps from the method I used.

Find out which way the dog tends to turn naturally. Restrain the dog, throw out a ball or a toy and wait for it to stop before releasing. Do this 10-20 times, in a 3-4 sessions. Record which way the dog tends to turn more, and that will be the direction of the turn. OFTEN IT CAN BE OPPOSITE TO THE WAY THE DOG HAS LEARNED THE BOX if you are re-training.

Get a large cone, or make something that represents the same type of obstacle. We use a cone that is about 2 feet tall at first. Teach the dog to go around the cone, on the flat and in the open. You can lure with food, a tug, a toy, whatever. When the dog rounds the cone, throw the item BEHIND you so the dog learns to DRIVE around the cone. Example...if you are teaching the dog to go around the cone clockwise, face the box with the lure. Use your LEFT HAND, extended from your body as if you were giving an agility direction, with the lure, and get the dog to go around the cone. Then slowly fade the lure further and further away. Use your LEFT FOOT to step toward the box, and then pivot around to face away from the box when you throw the lure. Of course this would all be opposite if the dog turns counter-clockwise. When you can send the dog around the cone from about 5 feet away, you are ready for the next step. Sometimes this step will take two 5-minute sessions, other times it can take a few days. Using clicker when the dog drives around the cone is good too, but I have had more success with my dogs just luring and throwing.

Now you can move the cone into a corner, someplace with good footing like a carpeted hallway etc. Leave just enough room for the dog to get around the cone, and keep practising until you see the dog doing a real tight turn around the cone. A few days to a week will get a physical memory going.

Next you would get the box and two "walls" of some sort. Gates or plywood panels work well. Set it up so that the "walls" angle off right next to the box, creating a sort of chute so the dog cannot do a wide turn. Even people standing there will work, broad jump boards, whatever...we even used those three-fold chaise lounges, which worked perfectly. We set them up on their sides, beside the box. Whatever you've got that will block the dog from going wide. Then place the cone in front of the box with just enough room for the dog to get around it without touching the box. Practice, practice, practice. IGNORE any attempts for the dog to trigger the box, if they already know how. Just reinforce going around the cone. Make sure it stays tight around the cone.

After the dog is doing #4 really well, you gradually start inching the cone back toward the box. HUGE PRAISE for getting a foot or two on the box...usually it's their back feet at first. Inch the cone back until it is touching the box, and in almost no time, you will see the dog starting to bank off the box with all four feet. DO THIS FOR A LONG TIME BEFORE PROCEEDING TO THE NEXT STEP. Make sure the dog is banking off the box the same way, every time, many times (like for a week or more, twice a day, every day, in short training sessions).

Next get a jump and place it right against the box, with the cone in front of the jump. Send your dog just as you always have. Be close enough so that the dog can see the jump has been installed. Initially everything will go to hell. With some dogs, you can start with an 8-inch jump, but with others you may need to use a very low (2-3 inches) jump to start. Keep doing the "around the cone" routine until you see that the dog has developed the habit of jumping onto the box and coming around the cone. If you are teaching large dogs, at this point you may need to move to a smaller cone/obstacle so that they can physically do this. You may find that the dogs don't recognize the smaller cone as the same thing, and you may need to go back to some "go around the cone on the flat" exercises. Doesn't take too long, usually a few reps and they get it.

After the dog is doing #6 well, and has done many reps in exactly the same way, you can start putting a ball on the ledge of the box and asking for them to get it with the turn. Don't expect a huge retrieve; if they grab it, then drop it, that's ok at first. You just want them to be able to do the turn + be able to not fumble the ball during it. After they are doing that well, start loading the box. Expect bobbles and weird turns, just reinforce the good stuff and pretty soon the physical memory that you have helped to build will kick in.

After you get the dog retrieving the ball well around the cone, reliably and with the same body movements every time, you can remove the cone. Initially the dog will act funny and the turn/ball retrieve may fall apart. Go back to luring the dog into the proper motions, without the cone present, and no ball. Some dogs will strongly associate the cone with the turn, and will need lots of help at this stage to understand that they can do the same motion without the cone present.

Now, you have a roughly shaped good flyball turn. It's wider than it should be, and probably the dog pauses slightly on the box, allowing the lever to trigger while grabbing the ball. The next set of exercises is designed to remove the pause and get the dog "snapping" off the box. ____________________________________________________________

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*the exercises listed below can be used with a dog that already has a pretty good turn but is slow on the box. If your dog is getting 2-3 feet on the box already, you can do this right away. You need THREE PEOPLE to work your dog in the exercise below.

Place a jump in front of the box. With a dog that has had a bad turn before, use an 8 inch jump. If the dog has a reasonable turn already, use a lower height. The jump needs to be placed according to the dog...bigger dogs need to have the jump about 6"-1' away, smaller dogs less. You want them to be forced to jump it, not run up to the box and trigger it with two feet on the lever and back feet behind the jump. If the jump is too close, many dogs will choose to do this.

One person is loading box. One person is the dog's owner/handler. Another person needs to be there to restrain and release the dog.

Below you will see the "setup" illustrated. Please be kind and don't laugh too hard at my limited understanding of Paint Shop Pro! There should be a boxloader behind that box...I just couldn't deal with drawing another blue person. From right to left is the restrainer/helper, the dog (ha!) and the owner/handler of said "dog." Then there's a jump (red) and of course the box.

Now...here's the fun part. The handler is standing beside the box, getting ready to take off. The restrainer is a key role, as the handler will take their cue of when to take off VERBALLY from the restrainer. The restrainer will say, "On your mark, get set, GO." The handler takes of at full speed, yelling the dog's name, without a backward glance on "get set." This is VERY IMPORTANT. The handler will take off PRIOR to the dog being released toward the box. The dog will be released on "go." The boxloader's job is to watch the dog's actions and let the handler know if the dog has gone to the box or has turned and raced back toward the handler. If the dog does not go to the box, simply ignore and go back, start over. You want the dog to go to the box, get the ball or at least attempt to, and turn and take off toward his rapidly disappearing handler. All of this should be done ON THE FLAT. The boxloader should watch to see if the dog is, indeed, rabidly snapping off the box. Don't proceed until the dog is snapping quickly off the box to catch the handler.

***Before proceeding to the next step, you should have already trained your dog to reliably do restrained recalls over jumps, away from the box.

Next, the restrainer should release the dog from behind the first jump, and then move the heck out of the way so that hopefully the dog can get into the lane of jumps and race back over them. You can start with one or two jumps, or all four depending on how your dog is doing on getting into the lane. Proceed back until the restrainer is releasing the dog from behind the last jump. The handler should adjust their positioning so that they can beat the dog back over the jumps, and this depends on the dog and handler. ***please note...this method is something we have figured out on our own, with help and advice from several people currently doing flyball. THANK YOU to those who took the time to let us pick their brains at tournaments. I am not saying this is "the way" to do it, or even the "best way" to do it. It has worked for me and my compadres. If you know of something different that might make this easier, please write me!

***another note...jumping the four hurdles is totally different and you can work on those skills/restrained recalls over jumps while teaching the turn. Don't try putting the boxwork and the jumping together until both are perfect.