Interesting Nutrition Discussion

[oceanaussi]

I'm the proud owner of a 4-month-old Weim pup and I'm a bit concerned about his metabolism. He grew 10 cm in one month and only gained 1kg (he's 48 cm tall and weighs 12kg). He poos about 10times a day and it's really, really smelly and watery. He also farts a lot (and they're very smelly too).

This morning I chat to the people of the German Weimaraner Forum (I'm German) and described the problem hoping to get some advice. Quentin gets 'fresh' food (cooked rice or pasta with raw veggies and raw meat) in the morning, a chicken frame or bone in the afternoon and Eagle Pack dry food in the evening. In between he gets a carrot or an apple or an eggplant or dry biscuits etc.

When I mentioned that the people in the chat were absolutly shocked that I feed bones! None of them feeds their dogs bones! And they're hunting dogs! they said I should feed some rumen and (not sure what it's called here) ox penis (dried like the dried liver we have here) and also dried rabbit ears, cow ears and ox tail.

I was really surprised by that and they said years ago everybody was feeding bones but there were a lot of problems (digestion problems, splintering, intestinal problems ect).

What do you guys think of this and do you feed raw bones or not?

[Guest Tess32]

Plenty of us feed raw food. It's more shocking to me they think a carnivore can't handle raw bones, hehe.

[persephone]

What has the vet said about your pup's problems?

It could be lots of things... enzyme insufficiency, food intolerance, inflammation.... etc etc.

In the meantime..you may want to reduce his raw vegetable content drastically... chunks of raw veges are not digested well. IMO...and provide way more fibre than a dog needs.

He is only a baby still....and needs food with maximum nutrition in a form which is easily digested.

Veges are NOT this food

re Bones..

providing you feed the 'non-weight-bearing bones' they can be chewed up without the sharp splinters .

Our working dogs, for the past 60 years have been fed a diet rich in all types of RAW bones, with never a problem caused by eating them.

Some dogs do have a problem..and accidents happen....

Hope he improves soon.

let us know what the vet says

[persephone]

It's more shocking to me they think a carnivore can't handle raw bones, hehe.

*nods*

[Miranda]

Yes I feed raw bones and always have

I've been looking at what you feed your dog and you are feeding a lot of carbohydrate, rice or pasta, raw vegies, eagle pack dry and an apple or a carrot or an eggplant. Many dogs don't process carbohydrate efficiently and this results in loose, voluminous poo and gas. If I fed my dogs what you are feeding I think they'd react as well.

Why don't you cut out the rice and/or pasta, the vegies and the eggplant (I wouldn't feed eggplant to a dog), carrot and apple and just feed the mince, the chicken and bones and the EP and see how he goes on that. If he's still the same I'd also cut out the chicken frame, one of my dogs gets loose poo if he eats a chicken frame.

ETA I've just seen that he's only 4 months old, IMO you are feeding way too many different things and it's no wonder his digestive system isn't coping. Just feed him meat and dry food for now and I'm sure you'll see a big improvement.

Edited May 7, 2008 by Miranda

[Faolmor]

10 watery poos a day is very excessive! Poor little guy. His little GI tract would be very, very irritated.

Yep, I feed raw bones.

If Quentin seems otherwise healthy, and doesn't seem to be in pain or anything, I'd be looking at a food intolerance of some kind. Quentin's symptoms sound to me like what our lab went through. Turned out for us he was allergic to just about every meat known to man except roo.

A lot of people find that their dogs can't tolerate chicken. I'd suggest trying an elimination diet until you can isolate which of the foods he's eating that don't agree with him. I would start by eliminating chicken and switching it for another meat (eg turkey, roo...something that hasn't been pumped full of antiobiotics, which all "shop-bought" chickens have). I'd also eliminate the wheat-based products. Dogs don't need it and some dogs can be intolerant to wheat and grains.

As for bones splintering etc, if they're cooked, yes, they can certainly splinter. Dogs can also shave a splinter off a large, raw marrow bone. I was always told to stick to the "non-weight-bearing bones" of the animal for feeding - eg chicken wings, roo tails...since these can be safely crunched up by the dog and it would be very unlikely for them to splinter.

Good luck solving the problem.

[jaegertheweim]

I dont have anything to add to the raw bone discussion but in regards to your Weim's digestive issues I think that rather than changing to a different kibble, perhaps you could try eliminating all the different things you are feeding in his diet in order to figure out what is causing his runny poos.

[poodlefan]

Bones ain't bones. If they were feeding the type that can splinter, I'm not surprised they had problems.

I only feed the softer, fully digestible bones to my dogs.

I'd suggest you cut the pasta/rice from your dog's diet. Feed only meat on the bone. Feed either premium kibble or a proper BARF mix in it's place.

Are you feeding the veggies pulped? If not, there's a lot of undigestible stuff in your dog's diet.

[persephone]

I should feed some rumen

Yummy..tripe

'cept I like mine with onion and white sauce ...cooked!

[Guest Tess32]

We can't get green tripe here anyway

[4 Paws]

you can actually get g -whizzers(dried goat penis) and beef whizzers here.I posted about them a couple of weeks ago in general

[oceanaussi]

Wow, so many replies in such a short period! Thanks!

@Tess32: They do feed raw meat but no bones and yes I was very surprised by that! My Mum never used to allow raw bones but we lived in a flat with 5 whippets and 2 greyhounds, so I kinda understand... Apparently, in nature they wouldn't eat the bones either just the meat (so the people said).

@persephone: The vet said it could be a variety of things, like food intolerance, too much protein ect. I've given him a sample to analyse and he's developing a plan on how I should go about feeding. He thinks he might be intolerant to the food but he said the diet is ok. I do cook his veggies a little before I mix them with his food. But he gets raw carrots. As dogs are omnivores they should eat more veggies, I've been told. What do you mean with 'non-weight-bearing bones'? He normally get's chicken frames (1 a week).

@Miranda: The ratio of rice/pasta to veggies to meat would be 1:1:5. I feed the dry food in the evening as I'm not 100% sure that my self-cooked food contains all vitamins and minerals ect needed. But yes, I can try without the other things and see how he goes. Why can't dogs eat eggplant? He ate a piece the other day (it fell down) and really enjoyed it. And I'm not feeding all these things in one day either!

@Faolmor: Yes, Quentin is fine otherwise and I spoke to the Vet last time he had his injections and he wasn't concerned. When I came in this morning he was quite happy to do a stool analysis and work out a food plan, so we can see what it might be.

@jaegertheweim: Well, I did trial each of the items I feed. No problems then.

@poodlefan: Not sure which bones you mean can splinter. I normally feed raw chicken frames and they were totally against it! what are pulped veggies?

@persephone: Is tripe and rumen the same (sorry had to look it up on the dictionairy). I've never then that here. Where do you get it?

[Guest Tess32]

That's very wrong - all wild dogs/wolves eat the bones. I wonder where these people are getting their info from!

Dogs are not ominvores, they are carnivores

The rice/pasta is a filler and not needed.

[poodlefan]

OA:

@poodlefan: Not sure which bones you mean can splinter. I normally feed raw chicken frames and they were totally against it! what are pulped veggies?

Hard, old weight bearing bones. If you stick to poultry or rabbit bones and the ribs and necks of larger animals you should be OK. In order for dogs to access nutrition from vegetables, you have to pulverise them. The most common method is to juice them and feed the pulp or blend them until smooth. Large chunks of cooked veggies will pass right through.

Wheat is about the most common source of food allergies in dogs. I'd be trying a wheat free diet but wait to see what you vet says. Removing all that undigestible bulk from his diet should help firm up and reduce the amount he poos.

Lots of people think bones will kill a dog. Cooked bones sure won't do much good but most dogs eat raw bones well. For the "bones kill dogs brigade, one wonders how they figure dogs survived all those thousands of years before the cereal manufacturers decided to get into the pet food game.

I think dogs are best described as opportunistic carnivores. They can get buy on a range of foods but will go for meat first.

Edited May 7, 2008 by poodlefan

[SparkyTansy]

10 watery poos a day is very excessive! Poor little guy. His little GI tract would be very, very irritated.

Yep, I feed raw bones.

If Quentin seems otherwise healthy, and doesn't seem to be in pain or anything, I'd be looking at a food intolerance of some kind. Quentin's symptoms sound to me like what our lab went through. Turned out for us he was allergic to just about every meat known to man except roo.

A lot of people find that their dogs can't tolerate chicken. I'd suggest trying an elimination diet until you can isolate which of the foods he's eating that don't agree with him. I would start by eliminating chicken and switching it for another meat (eg turkey, roo...something that hasn't been pumped full of antiobiotics, which all "shop-bought" chickens have). I'd also eliminate the wheat-based products. Dogs don't need it and some dogs can be intolerant to wheat and grains.

As for bones splintering etc, if they're cooked, yes, they can certainly splinter. Dogs can also shave a splinter off a large, raw marrow bone. I was always told to stick to the "non-weight-bearing bones" of the animal for feeding - eg chicken wings, roo tails...since these can be safely crunched up by the dog and it would be very unlikely for them to splinter.

Good luck solving the problem.

I agree with Faolmor...

having gone through the same type of problems with my boy as a pup, we looked at food as a possible cause for his problems and found that he was severely allergic to chicken, causing a mountain of problems.

I feed (raw, non weight bearing) bones to my other two with no problems at all.

[Miranda]

Apparently, in nature they wouldn't eat the bones either just the meat (so the people said).

When I lived in the country my dogs would catch the occasional young rabbit and would eat every bit of it including the bones and the head, all the fur would come out in their poo as they couldn't digest it.

@persephone: The vet said it could be a variety of things, like food intolerance, too much protein ect. I've given him a sample to analyse and he's developing a plan on how I should go about feeding. He thinks he might be intolerant to the food but he said the diet is ok. I do cook his veggies a little before I mix them with his food. But he gets raw carrots. As dogs are omnivores they should eat more veggies, I've been told. What do you mean with 'non-weight-bearing bones'? He normally get's chicken frames (1 a week).

Just cut out the excess fibre and fillers and he'll probably be fine, trying that would be heaps cheaper than getting a vet involved. Dogs don't need to eat more vegies, mine may get a small amount of vegetable matter during the week andthey're all fine. Non weight bearing bones are bones that don't carry the dog's weight, marrow bones are weight bearing bones and as a consequence are much harder.

@Miranda: The ratio of rice/pasta to veggies to meat would be 1:1:5. I feed the dry food in the evening as I'm not 100% sure that my self-cooked food contains all vitamins and minerals ect needed. But yes, I can try without the other things and see how he goes. Why can't dogs eat eggplant? He ate a piece the other day (it fell down) and really enjoyed it. And I'm not feeding all these things in one day either!

You do NOT need to feed rice or pasta as they're only fillers and provide little or no nutritional benefit to the dog, but they will certainly add to the amount of poo you have to pick up. Eggplant would be almost impossible for a dog to break down and digest.

When I came in this morning he was quite happy to do a stool analysis and work out a food plan, so we can see what it might be.

Yes he would, vets like money just like everyone else.

@poodlefan: Not sure which bones you mean can splinter. I normally feed raw chicken frames and they were totally against it! what are pulped veggies?

Cooked bones will splinter. Pulped vegies are put through a blender or juicer.

@persephone: Is tripe and rumen the same (sorry had to look it up on the dictionairy). I've never then that here. Where do you get it?

You can't get green tripe in Australia

[oceanaussi]

Completly forgotten to mention one important thing: When Quentin started to have lots of runny, smelly poos, I stopped feeding him everything except for EP but nothing has changed.

@Tess: I always thought dogs are carnivores as well but meanwhile lots of people (including breeders, vets ect) have told me this is not true...

@poodlefan: Yep, I'm feeding the right kind of bones. The veggies I cook until soften and then put them in the blender, except for the one carrot a week. There's no id possible of what's in the poo - looks all digested.

[poodlefan]

You may be looking at some kind of bowel intolerance - common for food allergies.

Usual trick would be to go to some food source he hasn't had before I think EP make some of these. See what the vet says.

[The Spotted Devil]

Sorry to go slightly OT, but in science dogs are viewed as omnivores NOT carnivores - they can conserve nitrogen and do some hind gut fermenting (like a horse) amongst other features. I'm not saying fruit/veg should form a large part of their diet - I'm just a stickler for detail

[oceanaussi]

Thanks Miranda! I agree with most things said here, I'm just interested in other people opinion as the chat this morning completly blew me away. Having 20 people simultaneously saying "OMG - you can't feed bones to a dog!" just freaked me!