x_Ukeeva_x Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 I guess people can also ask the question why people breed with untested animals or animals with other known conditions - who knows?Provided breeders are responsible and get their dogs eyes tested are are honest and open about the results, hopefuly being well informed we can lesson the occurance of issues arising in the breed. Well said !!! This is something that amazes me also......and p's me off no end! I would have to agree … Although wouldn’t that then raise the issue of What is a Responsible Breeder? As some breeders do Gino testing, others don’t and some never do it all together? Not to mention then there is always the issue of some Breeders making up fake results just so their kennel, pride and ego’s remain intact. Some breeders are open and honest but everyone has skeletons in their closet. …….. After all we are all human. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polarpeak Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 Until such time as the SHHF, SHA, CERF notify the worlds respective Siberian breed clubs that Distichia is a herditary issue in the breed, it is NOT one.To date - the SHCV Inc hasnt' been notified as such, has the NSW Club? No the NSW Club hasn't recieved any notification either Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polarpeak Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 Not to mention then there is always the issue of some Breeders making up fake results just so their kennel, pride and ego’s remain intact. I find this a strange comment - I don't know of any that would stoop that low and if they did they they certainly are not ethical. However if you were concerned you could always sight the original certificate. Some breeders are open and honest but everyone has skeletons in their closet. …….. After all we are all human. Yep I'm human but I definitely do not have any breeding skeletons in my closet. That is not to say that I would tell the whole world IF I had an issue but I would most definitely tell anyone considering purchasing a puppy or using a stud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahmadi Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 Tear Staining can be caused by so many different factors that it cant be diagnosed without being looked at by a vet. Ian Done a google search and can not find anything that is informative, so I thought I would ask here as a general question.What causes severe eye staining in Siberian Huskies? Siberian Huskies are not a known breed for eye stains? In put from other breeds welcome Thanks in advance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Are You Serious Jo Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 One problem with the SHHF study I see is that Distichia is not mentioned anywhere, which indicates to me that the survey questions asked may have been lacking. With n = 561, it should have been noted, the fact that not one dog has been reported to have it suggests the questions are flawed. Also, owners self reporting is not the most reliable data collecting method, what would be convincing is a study using vet records on sibes, not owners self diagnosing their dogs. As a study that one is really flawed and as such caution should be used in accepting it as gospel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 Look I dont want to carry this on and cause anyone any grief but the fact of the matter is that some SH have been diagnosed with . Distichia. It has been noted here that dogs in several countries have been diagnosed with it. It is also known to be a heritable issue. Therefore it is a genetic disorder known to occur in the breed .Whether you are being notified about it officially or not shouldnt make any difference .If a dog has the complaint - regardless of what breed it is or whether its the only dog ever known to have had it in the breed its still something that has to be taken into account when you do your breeding programs. There isnt any point in bringing in an overseas study to try to show its not there because the one in 1991 was conducted in Australia and there were at least 20 percent of them which had the condition and you state that you are aware that some others in various countries have got the thing but they are still passing eye exams and they are still being used for breeding .Knowing its heritable how can you think that its not something that needs to be checked and considered when dogs are being bred. I can see this is a new discussion but its not logical to tell us that some dogs have been noted as having it but its not a genetic issue for the breed .If its not seen as being an issue for the breed and is allowed to go unchecked eventually its going to be a huge problem for the breed. Just because its not something a specialist eye vet doesnt test for doesnt mean we shouldnt be getting it checked and trying not to breed it in any more than it is now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hotwyr Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 Of course we could just go on and on and on about diseases and breeding - lets face it - there are lines that have catarracts and yet we continue to see the same dogs/bitches being used again and again continuing to perpetuate the problem, then there's monorchidism and then there's PRA and ectopic ureter and shunts and blah blah blah...... we can site all the studies in the world but in the end if the breeder won't take the right steps and stop breeding with effected or carrier animals we may as well be pushing the proverbial up hill with a pointed stick..... Rae Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
articpower sibes Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 (edited) Not to mention then there is always the issue of some Breeders making up fake results just so their kennel, pride and ego’s remain intact. I find this a strange comment - I don't know of any that would stoop that low and if they did they they certainly are not ethical. However if you were concerned you could always sight the original certificate. Some breeders are open and honest but everyone has skeletons in their closet. …….. After all we are all human. Yep I'm human but I definitely do not have any breeding skeletons in my closet. That is not to say that I would tell the whole world IF I had an issue but I would most definitely tell anyone considering purchasing a puppy or using a stud. I'm with you there Sheri yes we are only human I have only had the one litter no skeletons there and don't intend to have any either. I love this breed too much and will always try to improve on my dogs, and be open and honest about my dogs Edited May 9, 2008 by articpower sibes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 Of course we could just go on and on and on about diseases and breeding - lets face it - there are lines that have catarracts and yet we continue to see the same dogs/bitches being used again and again continuing to perpetuate the problem,then there's monorchidism and then there's PRA and ectopic ureter and shunts and blah blah blah...... we can site all the studies in the world but in the end if the breeder won't take the right steps and stop breeding with effected or carrier animals we may as well be pushing the proverbial up hill with a pointed stick..... Rae Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahmadi Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 First of all, I dont know how to delete parts of quotes, so will apologise now leaving everything I have in this email. When we breed our dogs, we often think that we are doing the right thing. There are many hereditory things in breeds that can not be tested for as such, and also remember, that although your bitch and the dog you use, may not be showing any signs of it, but sometimes their littermates will. You might breed generation after generation without ever having anything serious show up, then all of a sudden something might. So do you start all over again by getting rid of all those years of hard work, or do you try and breed it out of your line. Please remember, do not throw the baby out with the bathwater just because something might show up in your lines. Many years ago there was a breed that got totally hung up on hip scores and would breed from anything that didnt have a low hip score, by doing this they forgot about breed type. They may have helped the hip scores in the breed, but the quality of the breed suffered totally and then it took a long time to breed the quality back up again. In the long run, i wonder if the hip scores of today are any better than they were previously Ian Not to mention then there is always the issue of some Breeders making up fake results just so their kennel, pride and ego’s remain intact. I find this a strange comment - I don't know of any that would stoop that low and if they did they they certainly are not ethical. However if you were concerned you could always sight the original certificate. Some breeders are open and honest but everyone has skeletons in their closet. …….. After all we are all human. Yep I'm human but I definitely do not have any breeding skeletons in my closet. That is not to say that I would tell the whole world IF I had an issue but I would most definitely tell anyone considering purchasing a puppy or using a stud. I'm with you there Sheri yes we are only human I have only had the one litter no skeletons there and don't intend to have any either. I love this breed too much and will always try to improve on my dogs, and be open and honest about my dogs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 Yep I agree Ian .Some lines in some breeds may have better hip scores but according to reports we've looked at we havent done anything over all to bring them down or eradicate it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 So considering how how they define a known genetic disorder in a breed I would say that Distichia is NOT a known genetic issue in the breed. If you put "distichiasis" and "husky" into Google, you get some interesting results on some interesting sites. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~Myschafis~ Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 Very interesting discussions I do have to applaud those breeders that ARE doing the right thing and telling people that ask about hip scores, eye certs etc and providing them with documentation to refer to, not only this though, but any structural/breed weaknesses that they have found in their own dogs or with the lines in particular. I think these breeders are truly doing the right thing and encouraging knowledge of the lines from all angles, with that knowledge you could then hopefully move forward with either better or maintained results but whilst maintaining breed type such as Ian discussed previously. I have to say one of the hardest things as a new comer trying to work out the good from the bad, with all the here say in between, at the end of the day its so hard to know what is true about what lines and what people/dogs. In some regards, a lot of the time, I did feel we would just have to go back to square one, and try it and see if an issue does occur, because we really couldn't determine which was true information or not. Like Hotwyr mentioned it is on the onus of the breeders to do the right thing, hopefully they are not only doing that in their own kennels, but give out good unbias information as well. .... On another note in regards to hip scores, and I do apologise if I am dragging this thread on or 'flogging a dead horse'. But Steve mentioned breeders over all haven't been able to bring hip scores down or eradicate it. I am presuming this is because of the BYB and puppy farming market? To be quite honest, most if not all registered breeders I know, have fantastic hip scores, well on the lower side of the average? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tutumaiao Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 On another note in regards to hip scores, and I do apologise if I am dragging this thread on or 'flogging a dead horse'.But Steve mentioned breeders over all haven't been able to bring hip scores down or eradicate it. I am presuming this is because of the BYB and puppy farming market? To be quite honest, most if not all registered breeders I know, have fantastic hip scores, well on the lower side of the average? We are totally off tangent from the original topic of Eye Staining lol, but, happy to continue with this. I agree, in the Siberian Husky I think the breed is well on the lower side of the medium hip average. I'm not sure (Steve would probably have to jump in here) whether she was including hip scores of BYB's for the results of the reports she has looked at to conclude that ('we' - gather this is cross board) havent done anything 'over all' to bring them down or eradicate the issue. I could only 'assume' that BYB's don't even bother to score their dogs for them to be included in the reports Steve has??? I am of the belief that the Siberian Husky however is currently in good shape in regards to hips, I can't speak for other breeds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~Myschafis~ Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 (edited) Sorry to Wildchild, Steve if those results don't include a BYB market, I would only have to assume that it does include 'registered' BYB's, because I really do feel as Tutumaiao said that in regards to the ethical 'crowd' of breeders sibes are doing pretty alright in the hip score department at the moment. Much lower than a lot of other breeds, with 0's being quite common. I think if anything at the moment eyes would be our biggest issue? (Back on topic ) Edited May 9, 2008 by mickatie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tutumaiao Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 Sorry to Wildchild, Steve if those results don't include a BYB market, I would only have to assume that it does include 'registered' BYB's, because I really do feel as Tutumaiao said that in regards to the ethical 'crowd' of breeders sibes are doing pretty alright in the hip score department at the moment. Much lower than a lot of other breeds, with 0's being quite common. I think if anything at the moment eyes would be our biggest issue? (Back on topic ) I would think eyes are our biggest issue in the breed. This is something as a whole we need to address, be honest and open about in a effort to try and lesson the occurance of issues cropping up. I don't think we will ever eradicate the problem of eye diseases faced in the Siberian but by being responsible and honest we can try and make eye issues less prevalent. If the ACES scheme finally makes the database accesible and breeders ensure their results can be viewed as public record in Australia we can make some more informed decisions in the directions we take our breeding programs. I would love for a scheme like SHOR to be set up in Australia, however it takes breeders actually sending in 'ALL RESULTS'...the good, the bad and the ugly to make it worthwhile. When ACES d/base is up and running provided the owners have allowed the dogs results to be viewed as public record, this may be our only real window outside of approaching every breeder individually for the eye results of their dogs to see what is 'really' out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 Our info came from discussions with the people who do the scoring in WA and no - BYB are not part of the story simply because BYB dont score and the scores arent entered or stats taken unless the dog is registered . I dont know enough about Husky's without going after specific info to make educated comment re scores but I dont think hips have ever been a real issue in the breed .The results of stats of breeds though both here and in the states is telling us that even though we have been testing for a hell of a long time over all we havent improved on scores .So if Husky's have got reasonable hips its because they always have had and its not because of us scoring. If we were the breed average would come down.Hip scoring is a whole new topic and it would be good to have a yak about it without needing to be politically correct so we could openly talk about the issues. Seems on a world wide basis most Husky people agree eyes are your biggest challenge. The danger comes in just racing in and taking anything out of the gene pool because it fails a particular test .The test results should be a tool and part of what the breeder needs to take into account depending on the mode of inheritance and many other things because we dont know what genes may be linked together and eliminating one may make another problem rarely seen or never seen in the breed float to the surface. It sounds simple - test the dogs eyes - if it fails the eye test dont use it for breeding. However, this constantly narrows the gene pool and history and science teaches us that when we take one problematic gene out we usually find we have another we begin to see emerging which may be fatal or have more serious consequences. Simple way of trying to explain it is. If we decide we wont allow humans to breed if they have brown eyes or carry the gene for brown eyes we would see an over night increase in the population which has blue eyes and an increase in skin cancer,red haired people and the incidence of an inability of humans to synthesise phenyanaline [PKU]. If we take out all the people who have blue eyes we would have to eventually see a higher incidence of humans who have an inability to synthesise zinc. In dogs we will see the results of our breeding decisions quickly in comparison but many will be things which dont show up at birh or cant be tested until much later in life and many will cause much more suffering than being blind does. If in fact blue eyes in the husky is linked to corneal problems you may end up with no genes for blue eyes left in the gene pool if we only take out dogs with corneal problems from the breeding program - no big deal - maybe - but what else is the gene linked to? There's much more to talk about but in this discussion - dont assume that the staining isnt something which needs to be taken into account in your breeding programs. Get it looked at and diagnosed by a vet and make your breeding decisions based on knowledge not by peer pressure or what you are told you should be selecting for or against. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~Myschafis~ Posted May 10, 2008 Share Posted May 10, 2008 (edited) Again I have to agree with TT, if we had a similar set up to SHOR in Australia, that would be fantastic, as I said before as a newcomer it is so hard to weed out the truth from the rumours, I think a set up like this would resolve a lot of the issues IF people participated and submitted all their results, the good the bad and the ugly. Whether people like to admit they have 'skeletons' or not, the fact of the matter is there are many registered breeders that aren't being upfront about the issues in their kennels, I wonder when they are withholding that information do they realise its the breed as a whole that is suffering. Steve, I do have to admit, I guess you could say I have been extremely narrow minded about testing and the results, if a dog fails or is above average, that's it, too bad, rule it out and start again. I guess my line of thought is that we have SO much variety with this breed and the population certainly isn't lacking, so I haven't thought that there was a need to worry about the breed lacking due to pulling unhealthy dogs from a breeding program? I do apologise as I have brought up several issues that are WAY off topic and i'm about to do it again I haven't seen Wildchild in here though, and I do think there has been heaps discussed in regards to eye staining so hopefully she still found what she was looking for ;) But... In regards to the blue eyes... In Sibes, there is an ongoing debate about breeding red to red due to it being a recessive and from a scientific stand point, generally it has been found it has not been good to continually breed recessives to one another. Could this be a similar case in regards to what is happening with blue eyes, being linked to other issues? Should breeders be aware of trying not to breed a dog with blue or parti eyes to another dog with blue or parti eyes? Very interesting discussion I think anyway Edited May 10, 2008 by mickatie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoofnHoof Posted May 10, 2008 Share Posted May 10, 2008 Again I have to agree with TT, if we had a similar set up to SHOR in Australia, that would be fantastic, as I said before as a newcomer it is so hard to weed out the truth from the rumours, I think a set up like this would resolve a lot of the issues IF people participated and submitted all their results, the good the bad and the ugly.Whether people like to admit they have 'skeletons' or not, the fact of the matter is there are many registered breeders that aren't being upfront about the issues in their kennels, I wonder when they are withholding that information do they realise its the breed as a whole that is suffering. Steve, I do have to admit, I guess you could say I have been extremely narrow minded about testing and the results, if a dog fails or is above average, that's it, too bad, rule it out and start again. I guess my line of thought is that we have SO much variety with this breed and the population certainly isn't lacking, so I haven't thought that there was a need to worry about the breed lacking due to pulling unhealthy dogs from a breeding program? I do apologise as I have brought up several issues that are WAY off topic and i'm about to do it again I haven't seen Wildchild in here though, and I do think there has been heaps discussed in regards to eye staining so hopefully she still found what she was looking for But... In regards to the blue eyes... In Sibes, there is an ongoing debate about breeding red to red due to it being a recessive and from a scientific stand point, generally it has been found it has not been good to continually breed recessives to one another. Could this be a similar case in regards to what is happening with blue eyes, being linked to other issues? Should breeders be aware of trying not to breed a dog with blue or parti eyes to another dog with blue or parti eyes? Very interesting discussion I think anyway From a genetic standpoint I don't know whether the recessive genes are the issue, it is more whether these genes can be linked to other genes which may result in negative outcomes. The only way the recessive trait itself would be the issue is if there was a direct negative from the trait - such as paler skin = higher susceptibility to skin cancer or whatever. Unless the trait itself is detrimental, there is only a need to worry about detrimental effects from genes linked to this trait. Hope that makes sense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TotemSpirit Posted May 11, 2008 Share Posted May 11, 2008 (edited) This Information is Really Interesting! - I havent seen it before... http://www.siberianhuskyhealthfoundation.o...%20survey-3.pdf In regards to Distichiasis, I dont know where this site has sourced there information from, but it is interesting. http://brooksideboxerkennel.com/brooksideb...ianhuskies.aspx Edited May 11, 2008 by TotemSpirit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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