Informal Correlation Study

[Rom]

I haven't done a poll before so I hope this all works out

Gratitude to all replies and thoughts

Edited April 29, 2008 by Rom

[Leema]

I want to vote for #1, but it then wants me to vote in #2 to process my vote.

[Rom]

Thanks for pointing that out Leema....I figured there might have been a flaw there but wasn't sure about how to fix it.....

ETA: hoping that the third option in the second area helps out

Edited April 29, 2008 by Rom

[Leema]

Yep, good now!

[Gayle.]

My boy was a chronic leash puller from about the age of 4 1/2 months. The lead would go on and he'd decide we're going THAT way, with me dragging along behind.

He is however, the nicest and friendliest dog you could EVER meet. Not an aggressive bone in his body and he's just a big, sweet sooky boy. Who walks very nicely by my side now.

[Lablover]

ROM,

What has leash pulling to do with aggression, bearing in mind sled dog are hard wired to pull? What satisfaction/reward do they achieve by doing so? Oppps...changed the subject, but remain interested.

[Rom]

Not entirely sure yet LL, just wondering if there is a correlation and if so how and why.

[jaybeece]

Yes to both. Mine pulled like a steam train when I first got him and would lose his head at other dogs in the street. I think that was primarily excitement, but it seemed to become more aggression than excitement as he got older. There were other factors involved there too (his aggression got worse offlead too), but I think that combination of excitement and being pulled back just tipped him over the edge a lot.

Now he doesn't pull as much and is controllable when seeing other dogs, even to the point where I can verbally stop him from reacting in most cases. Any tension on the collar makes a huge difference still.

Edited May 2, 2008 by jaybeece

[B-Q]

yes to both, we've now brought his leash skills under control and we're working on his on lead DA. It's just SO NICE to takehim for a walk for fun, not have it be such a chore.

Edited May 2, 2008 by busterlove

[Rom]

Thank you very much for your thoughts and comments to those who have made them...

Please keep em coming

[TangerineDream]

Tango is still a leash puller unless you remind him to 'don't pull' and then he settles down....to control this the first 100m of our walk is all obedience, about turns, downs, halts, stays...till we get to the end of the street...but forget to tell him to 'don't pull' and we'd win any sled dog race (if he was pulling a sled)

[sas]

When I first got my girl she was a shocker on the lead through pure excitment, loves everyone & everything.

[Nekhbet]

If you want a correlation between so called 'aggression' and leash pulling...

leash pulling - lack of training and lack of leadership from the owner, hence the dog is doing what it wants. It is not learning calm behaviour, stress increases and dog become progressively worst. If it is a dog that is so inclined to become 'aggressive' and since leash pulling wont be the only time where I would consider the dog to be not under effective control of the owner, I would expect it.

In short the dog is already doing what it wants. If that means it one day decides to take control of a situation and act like a lunatic on the end of a leash I wouldnt be suprised at all. Pulling dogs wont become aggressive, there is no direct correlation there. But pulling, straining and lack of control from the owner WILL mean the dog can take over a situation any way it wants.

I have had and have large dogs of varying breeds. No one is allowed to leash pull from day one at any time they are on lead and are taught to ignore other dogs whilst on lead.

(just to add that I am not finger pointing at anyone here or saying they are bad dog trainers/owners)

[happie]

If you want a correlation between so called 'aggression' and leash pulling...

leash pulling - lack of training and lack of leadership from the owner, hence the dog is doing what it wants. It is not learning calm behaviour, stress increases and dog become progressively worst. If it is a dog that is so inclined to become 'aggressive' and since leash pulling wont be the only time where I would consider the dog to be not under effective control of the owner, I would expect it.

In short the dog is already doing what it wants. If that means it one day decides to take control of a situation and act like a lunatic on the end of a leash I wouldnt be suprised at all. Pulling dogs wont become aggressive, there is no direct correlation there. But pulling, straining and lack of control from the owner WILL mean the dog can take over a situation any way it wants.

I have had and have large dogs of varying breeds. No one is allowed to leash pull from day one at any time they are on lead and are taught to ignore other dogs whilst on lead.

(just to add that I am not finger pointing at anyone here or saying they are bad dog trainers/owners)

Could you please let us in on how you taught your dogs not to leash pull?

I read a tip online saying if the dog pulled on the leash I should stop and stand still until the dog stopped pulling. I dont think that technique is working for me.

[Rom]

Hi Happie

The reason why just standing still won't work for some dogs is that they can still be oriented towards/focussing on whatever it is they hope to achieve by pulling on lead....they have perhaps learned in the past that they can influence the direction that you will let them go in by pulling on the lead (eg your dog pulls towards a tree, you think 'maybe he wants to pee' so you go with him or you dog sees a friend that he is eager to get to and he is pulling on the lead to reach them, even if you intended to go up to that friend anyway, the dog believes that he influenced the approach by pulling on the lead). So the dog is indicating that he wants to reach something by pulling on the lead now and you are just preventing him. This increases his frustration and so he tries harder....he doesn't understand why pulling on the lead sometimes gets him what he wants and other times it doesn't.

For these dogs, you actually have to turn around and walk in the other direction so that you can break that orientation/focus. In many cases an appropriately timed correction will help to speed up the learning process coupled with reinforcement when there is no tension on the lead. But the bottom line is, the dog has to come to understand that he never ever gets anything he wants when there is tension on the lead, and he never influences either the direction or rate of travel with leash tension.

I also feel that its important that when you are training for loose lead that you never walk your dog with a set destination or distance to be covered in mind because if you do sooner or later you might give in to the dogs tension on lead out of impatience/running out of time and his previous learning about leash tension will be reinforced again.

Edited May 9, 2008 by Rom

[jaybeece]

If you want a correlation between so called 'aggression' and leash pulling...

leash pulling - lack of training and lack of leadership from the owner, hence the dog is doing what it wants. It is not learning calm behaviour, stress increases and dog become progressively worst. If it is a dog that is so inclined to become 'aggressive' and since leash pulling wont be the only time where I would consider the dog to be not under effective control of the owner, I would expect it.

In short the dog is already doing what it wants. If that means it one day decides to take control of a situation and act like a lunatic on the end of a leash I wouldnt be suprised at all. Pulling dogs wont become aggressive, there is no direct correlation there. But pulling, straining and lack of control from the owner WILL mean the dog can take over a situation any way it wants.

I have had and have large dogs of varying breeds. No one is allowed to leash pull from day one at any time they are on lead and are taught to ignore other dogs whilst on lead.

(just to add that I am not finger pointing at anyone here or saying they are bad dog trainers/owners)

This makes plenty of sense to me. My dog's only improved because I've slowly learned how to handle him better and not put up with any crap from him on walks. He's also learned that pulling is not on, but that has been hard when he's so powerful. He still has some way to go, but he's getting there.

[happie]

Hi Happie

The reason why just standing still won't work for some dogs is that they can still be oriented towards/focussing on whatever it is they hope to achieve by pulling on lead....they have perhaps learned in the past that they can influence the direction that you will let them go in by pulling on the lead (eg your dog pulls towards a tree, you think 'maybe he wants to pee' so you go with him or you dog sees a friend that he is eager to get to and he is pulling on the lead to reach them, even if you intended to go up to that friend anyway, the dog believes that he influenced the approach by pulling on the lead). So the dog is indicating that he wants to reach something by pulling on the lead now and you are just preventing him. This increases his frustration and so he tries harder....he doesn't understand why pulling on the lead sometimes gets him what he wants and other times it doesn't.

For these dogs, you actually have to turn around and walk in the other direction so that you can break that orientation/focus. In many cases an appropriately timed correction will help to speed up the learning process coupled with reinforcement when there is no tension on the lead. But the bottom line is, the dog has to come to understand that he never ever gets anything he wants when there is tension on the lead, and he never influences either the direction or rate of travel with leash tension.

I also feel that its important that when you are training for loose lead that you never walk your dog with a set destination or distance to be covered in mind because if you do sooner or later you might give in to the dogs tension on lead out of impatience/running out of time and his previous learning about leash tension will be reinforced again.

Thanks that really helps! My dog pretty much walks with her head on the ground and wants to go up to every tree.

But Im not quite sure what you mean by not setting a destination or distance because I usually walk my dog around my street and we just end up back at my house.

And sometimes my dog wont budge when I want her to go in another direction or even through the door if she doesnt want to go home!

[Erny]

But Im not quite sure what you mean by not setting a destination or distance because I usually walk my dog around my street and we just end up back at my house.

What I'm sure ROM means is that oftentimes people will set about doing the right things/practicing training techniques to achieve the loose lead walk. But then, when they want to go to the milkbar, for example, and they've allotted only the prescribed time that it normally takes to walk there, their consistency to training goes out the window, because they don't want to/can't spend the time necessary to train the dog that loose lead walking is for every time, everywhere, in every circumstance. They need to get to the milkbar and back post haste, because Mum's waiting for the milk; butter; bread; or whatever else might be the reason.

They then often don't realise that they've been assuming the dog will understand that sometimes they don't have time for the training. But the dog doesn't. The only thing the dog learns to understand is that sometimes it is ok to pull on the lead, and he'll keep trying that when it suits him.

And loose lead walking counts for when you're standing still, too.

The training lesson for the dog should always be "don't pull on the lead, no matter what's going on in the environment and no matter what I'm doing nor at what speed I'm doing it".

So, when you're preparing to go out, don't go with a destination in mind that you need to reach within a determined time frame. And don't even be worried if you don't make the destination if the walk has been sufficiently long enough to serve as physical and mental stimulation for the dog. Quit on good notes. You can always go jump in the car and get to the milkbar if you need to. Or get mum to drive you .

Does that help, Happie?

Edited May 9, 2008 by Erny

[Rom]

Yup Thats it.

[happie]

Thanks! I think you explained it really well. I initially misunderstood it to mean I should always walk the same routes otherwise my dog will get use to it and still leash pull if I take her elsewhere

Another thing is, what should I do if I dont want my dog to go in a direction I dont want her to? Because I will pull on the leash for her to go in one direction and she'll pull in the other direction. If I stay still she'll do the same and wont budge.

That can look really strange to a passer by. I also read that me pulling will teach my dog to pull but staying still doesnt work either so what do I do??