Training Dog To Tolerate Other Dog

[charmbug]

Hi,

I haven't posted on here for quite a while due to business and uni pressure, but about 10 months ago we bought home our border collie, zoe who was roughly 14mths old. Zoe is a sweetie and fitted straight in, the problem is with the little monster we already had.

Fossil is a small x breed (Lhasa and Pomm) and we have had her for about 6 yrs, she was very attached to our little Mini Schnauzer that passed away. We thought she would love another dog and we wanted something a little more active than Fossil. At first she picked on Zoe at meal times, but within about a week they got along well, Zoe is extremely sociable with all other dogs and very submissive. Fossil became boss.

They slept together and it seemed ok, but one time we went to Canberra for a week with Fossil and left Zoe with my dad as she gets very car sick. that was about 4 months ago, since then Fossil has started picking on Zoe again, randomly, like if Zoe sniffs her bowl, if Zoe gets a pat, if Zoe licks the cat... a couple of weeks ago Fossil had a frenzy attack and popped her eye out, which was luckly put back in by the vet.

I had to seperate them because Fossil has started latching on and biting Zoe and Zoe is starting to snap back. Now Fossil is inside and Zoe out and we have to shuffle them around rooms. If Fossil even sees Zoe or hears her, she goes into a Frenzy attack. We can't keep this up forever and I just want them to get along. We have watched all the dog whisperer tapes and have tried the firm hand, socialising at parks (just not together now) and showing them to eachother on a leash. So far Fossil is still nuts.

Now Fossil is having a string of eye operations and when that is over, I will have her desexed (shes never been bred and I never intend to let her), hopefully that will help?? Fossil is mostly my 10 yr old girls dog and I feel responsible to keep her even though there are times I cant tolerate her bad mood (postman is also a trigger for frenzy attacks, actually any man is), but Zoe is a real sweety and I really love her, she would actually love Fossil to come around to liking her again and pines for her.

Any training tips for this matter? or recommended books? Should Fossil have a dog labotomy? Should I get a private trainer? Our vet didn't have any suggestions except to use a stern voice. Fossil used to be really bad with any strange dog during walks but frequent trips to the dog park cured her, now its just Zoe.

I appreciate any suggestions .

Regards

Charmaine

[Staff'n'Toller]

You have lots going on there, and you would definitely need the advice of a qualified professional in training but behaviour most importantly. You will probably find that not many people here can give you advise over the net without seeing your dogs. Here's a contact for you:

Dr Cam Day - Queensland

BVSc BSc MACVSc

Cam Day Consulting Adjunct

Associate Professor

Veterinary Behaviour Consultant

PO Box 8406

WOOLLOONGABBA QLD 4102

Fairfield Consulting Rooms

59 Fairfield Road

FAIRFIELD QLD 4103

University of Queensland Veterinary Teaching Hospital

Therapies Road, ST LUCIA

Phone (07) 3255 0022

Fax 07 3846 4625

Email [email protected]

Website: www.pethealth.com.au

Mel.

[Miranda]

Once two bitches take a dislike to each other you have a major problem. This is a serious situation and as SnT said you need to engage the services of a qualified behaviourist.

[charmbug]

Once two bitches take a dislike to each other you have a major problem. This is a serious situation and as SnT said you need to engage the services of a qualified behaviourist.

Thanks guys, I guess this is not one of those things I can DIY. I'm going to see if Fossil can be desexed during her eye-operation this week (if they put her under for that) at the same time, then I think I should give her some recovery time before attempting this. There are a few training places that are local to my area, so I'll book in someone to come out to our house. Fingers crossed they can do something because I don't like the idea of permanently seperating them, it's too stressful worrying if someone will accidently leave a door open.

Cheers

Charmaine

[petmezz]

please make shour they are qualified behaviourist, as a trainer may miss something small that turnes out to be somthing big

[Reddii]

Once two bitches take a dislike to each other you have a major problem. This is a serious situation and as SnT said you need to engage the services of a qualified behaviourist.

Thanks guys, I guess this is not one of those things I can DIY. I'm going to see if Fossil can be desexed during her eye-operation this week (if they put her under for that) at the same time, then I think I should give her some recovery time before attempting this. There are a few training places that are local to my area, so I'll book in someone to come out to our house. Fingers crossed they can do something because I don't like the idea of permanently seperating them, it's too stressful worrying if someone will accidently leave a door open.

Cheers

Charmaine

Ditto what the others have said about a qualified behaviourist. There are a couple of training schools near you (sleep over for the dog type) to be quite wary of with this sort of problem. Their method for just about everything is to jerk harder on a check chain until you get the desired behaviour - probably not the best way to go about things.

Best of luck with solving your problems!

[charmbug]

Once two bitches take a dislike to each other you have a major problem. This is a serious situation and as SnT said you need to engage the services of a qualified behaviourist.

Thanks guys, I guess this is not one of those things I can DIY. I'm going to see if Fossil can be desexed during her eye-operation this week (if they put her under for that) at the same time, then I think I should give her some recovery time before attempting this. There are a few training places that are local to my area, so I'll book in someone to come out to our house. Fingers crossed they can do something because I don't like the idea of permanently seperating them, it's too stressful worrying if someone will accidently leave a door open.

Cheers

Charmaine

Ditto what the others have said about a qualified behaviourist. There are a couple of training schools near you (sleep over for the dog type) to be quite wary of with this sort of problem. Their method for just about everything is to jerk harder on a check chain until you get the desired behaviour - probably not the best way to go about things.

Best of luck with solving your problems!

Thanks guys, I will start hunting for a good behaviourist, because I know it is something psychological with her, not just a naughty dog syndrome. Once she goes into a frenzy she would not even notice how hard you jerked on the chain, if fact she usually starts choking herself during those moments. We will see if a behaviourist can fix this, but if she doesn't overcome the problem I think I may rehome her with one of my elderly relatives so that she can be an 'only dog' and get the lap time she desires. I'd hate to do it, but the alternative is one day one of the kids will not close the door properly then she will probably get into a big fight and maybe even killed. The only other option we could think of is to build a run, but both our dogs are family interacters and would not like the isolation. Zoe is so well behaved and responds so well to obedience that she will sit still while Fossil threatens her (although you see the nervousness in her eyes) but once Fossil latches on she will snap at her (and fair enough). Fossil has her eye op on Thursday and I am going to see if they can desex her at the same time, so we will probably look for a trainer in a week or so, once she has recovered.

I thought I might try keeping Fossil in a crate in the room with Zoe and maybe after long enough she will be bored with the idea of attacking, but then I worried that the idea of being crated infront of a free dog might just frustrate her more.

Cheers

[maxiblack]

We're going through a similar thing at the moment except our dogs have been together since Bundy was a 5 week old puppy, he is now just over 1yo and Maxi is 7. Maxi is a quiet and placid desexed female dalmatian x and Bundy is a demanding desexed male staffy x. The aggressive behaviour surfaced last weekend and I have been beside myself with worry because I don't want to give Bundy away and I don't want to destroy Maxi's spirit. We contacted several people but went with Dr Cam Day, he is very helpful and experienced (but extremely expensive) and he was available when we needed him, others are all very busy and we didn't want to wait any longer than we had to.

We've been advised to keep them separated, supervise their limited interaction (on leads), continue to walk them because they seem happy then and to remove any bones/pigs ears from the yard (Bundy is a bit of a resource guarder). It's only been a week and we're exhausted, at the moment it feels like one step forward and two steps back.

How are you going with your two? Did you contact a behaviourist?

[Jey]

I'd also be interested in any report back of success with the therapist.

The one mentioned is near me, but I'd be interested to hear feedback before investigating further.

[BJean]

Thanks guys, I guess this is not one of those things I can DIY. I'm going to see if Fossil can be desexed during her eye-operation this week (if they put her under for that) at the same time, then I think I should give her some recovery time before attempting this. There are a few training places that are local to my area, so I'll book in someone to come out to our house. Fingers crossed they can do something because I don't like the idea of permanently seperating them, it's too stressful worrying if someone will accidently leave a door open.

sometimes - depending on the motivator - desexing already DA female dogs, actually makes them worse

[Erny]

sometimes - depending on the motivator - desexing already DA female dogs, actually makes them worse

I think this has something to do with where the dog is in her estrous cycle when she is desexed?

[BJean]

sometimes - depending on the motivator - desexing already DA female dogs, actually makes them worse

I think this has something to do with where the dog is in her estrous cycle when she is desexed?

not so much to do with being in cycle when she is desexed,

but the removal of cyclling itself from already DA bitches.

So the decrease in estrogen - which can be a pacifier in some bitches.

ie: the absense of varying estrogen, progesterone actually makes the bitches more DA.

Desexing is not 'changing' their temp, but removing the cycling - therefore hormone pattern - can intensify it.

Edited June 4, 2008 by lilli

[Erny]

Yeah. I have some writings that I researched way back when, for a project I was doing at the time.

"Progesterone, which becomes dominant following ovulation, has a calming effect on the dog's mind. Estrogen is short lived in the dog's body, whilst progesterone remains in circulation, influencing the brain for two months after each estrus.

So a female dog spayed during this two-month period may experience a considerable decrease in progesterone levels which, in turn, may be accompanied by emotional disturbances such as depression, irritability, nervousness and aggression.

As the nervous, aggressive behaviours may become learned behaviour, it is recommended that spaying, if it is to be done, be done prior to her first season, provided she is anatomically mature."