Elbow Dysplasia *update*

[kymbo]

Blacklabradore, was that cost for one elbow or two? And do you know if two are to be done, whether they are done at the same time??? I would think not??

[kelpiesrule]

If they live out at Ipswich, you could also try Booval Vets, apparently they are great and are set up for xraying hips and elbows.

I would definately find out if the 2 score was actually from the hips or elbows. It can be hard with these things because as much as you can test your dogs, things like HD and ED can skip generations, and unless you have every pup in the litter tested for generations, it can be difficult to guarantee that resulting pups are going to be free of problems.. at least his breeder IS testing

It can be a hard blow to buy a pedigree pup and end up with problems while something else gets a pound puppy and it is as healthy as a horse.

Hope all works out for the pup.

[Monah]

I bred a pup 18 months ago with severe ED from parents with perfect scores.

Yes he had surgery - by a Vet called Richard Mitchell. He is the only vet in Qld who is doing this operation by arthroscopy. That means he makes small incisions and puts a camera and instruments in rather than opening up the whole joint. The recovery is much faster this way. My boy was back to normal in 48 hours but had to be crated for a month.

There isn't a whole lot they can do with ED but a consult with Richard will tell you what you need to know. He is based on the Sunshine Coast.

I can also recommend Richard. He's excellent. good luck with the lab. Joint problems can come from way back in the genes. ie. if say the sire's fathers brother had a bad score. having said that, of course it is the right thing to do to breed from excellent scores to minimise the problem, but, it can sneek in regardless from somewhere else

[blacklabrador]

Blacklabradore, was that cost for one elbow or two? And do you know if two are to be done, whether they are done at the same time??? I would think not??

It was both at the same time. He was able to weight bear as soon as he woke up and by the time the sedation had worn off he was wanting to run again (bloody lab puppies!!) He was done at 11 months of age. I've included a picture of him post surgery. His elbows are shaved like a poodle! The pink bandage around his leg is holding a fentinyl patch on for pain relief.

He is such a beautiful puppy! (he's a big strong man now!)

Edited April 23, 2008 by blacklabrador

[kymbo]

They go to another vet, but the other vet is owned by Booval, and that is where the dog was sent for the initial xrays, but they were read at the specialists...

* still trying to find out whether it was an elbow score*

Again thanks for all the imput

[kymbo]

Blacklab, thankyou for the pics and info...3k is a good price for two???I was expecting worse actually...

What a gorgeous fellow

Anyway be back later hopefully with some info

[blacklabrador]

Kymbo in retrospect I guess the elbow scores aren't that important to the treatment of the dog. It will be important for the breeder to know about it though - if they are responsible it may affect their future breeding plans.

I don't have anything to compare the price to as Dr Mitchell is the only one in Qld who does the surgery this way.

[kymbo]

I agree, but it would be interesting to know. Sometimes I get caught up in the details..

I know my sister/neice just want to give this dog the best chance, iykwim. He is very much loved

[blacklabrador]

I agree, but it would be interesting to know. Sometimes I get caught up in the details..

I know my sister/neice just want to give this dog the best chance, iykwim. He is very much loved

I think you will find that the vet they see won't do the surgery. We were initially sent to the University of Qld where there is a vet who specialises in the open joint surgery. He referred us on to Richard. This surgery needs to be done by a joint specialist rather than your everyday small animal vet.

[kymbo]

Thanks blacklab.....your inbox is full btw

[kymbo]

Just an update...my neice spoke to the breeder and she has been really helpful and concerned. She also confirmed that both the mum and dad of this pup have a 0/0 score for both elbows and hips, so this must be a fluke/throwback? My neice must have mixed up her info when she was telling me, but she was pretty upset. Maybe those scores were for another pup that she was looking at? Who knows....

Out of that litter, this pup is the only one sold to a pet home and all other littermates are being shown and are healthy.

She offered a replacement pup if my neice chooses as well ( which is very nice)but at this stage it isn't an option.

My neice is going to play it by ear for the next couple of months, in conjunction to using joint guard/fish oil etc and keeping him confined. Then she will reassess what to do, with how he is responding. She *may* at that point get another xray and get a second opinion from a different specialist.

Thanks for all the help and imput on this thread.

Kym

[MissMonaro]

Just be careful that the vet isnt just "pushing" for an operation un-necessarily.

I have rehomed a few bitches that have not scored well enough in the elbows for me to use in my breeding program (shame - cos some were nice girls)...however...all have been desexed and rehomed to pet homes - (all new owners are aware of why). There are just a few things that the new owners have to be aware of....eg. no overfeeding (do NOT let them get fat), no excessive exercise...normal pet exercise is fine, but no marathon running etc.

Unfortunately in the case of one of my bitches - she came from parents that were both 0's in elbows and grandparents were good etc. She never limped as a youngster. But sadly it appears that the problem stemmed from the actual breeding of dogs together back further in the lines....so eventually when the 2 came together, the gene appeared with this mating. Plus her litter mate was diagnosed with OCD, so another factor to take into consideration.

However I will say that she now lives with a family with 3 children - that live on the waterfront. They adore her and it worked out well.

I will say that there are sadly breeders out there that do breed with unsound elbow scores. I know of a 3:3 stud dog, and another with a 2:2 as well. I wouldnt be playing around with that, no matter how "good" the dog was. That is just opening yourself up for problems.

Your breeder has done the right thing by breeding with low scoring elbows, but unfortunately, sometimes things do happen and we cant always predict what genes will come through or even how the puppy will be raised when it leaves our care. We can just do the best we can and educate the new owners as much as possible.

I know of dogs with HD that have never had hip replacements etc ......one I know that was diagnosed with HD at 10 months of age uses glucosamine in the diet and she does have catrophin injections as well......but the dog just turned 10 years of age. This same dog has PRA and was going blind at around 4 years of age. So its not always a death sentence or an expensive vet trip.

I would get an x-ray done when he is 12 months old and have it scored by Dr Wyburn in WA...or if she is still concerned, as Blacklab said I would be actually seeing a "specialist" in this area.

[kymbo]

Thanks for that info

cheers

kym

[ILuvAmstaffs]

She also confirmed that both the mum and dad of this pup have a 0/0 score for both elbows and hips, so this must be a fluke/throwback? My neice must have mixed up her info when she was telling me, but she was pretty upset. Maybe those scores were for another pup that she was looking at? Who knows....

Out of that litter, this pup is the only one sold to a pet home and all other littermates are being shown and are healthy.

ED is a polygenic condition... so a dog & a bitch with good scores can throw pups with ED.... though if they have bad scores, obviously the risk is higher. As for the other pups being "healthy", that might not necessarily be the case because some dogs with ED don't show physical signs of lameness until they are much older.

As has already been said, the elbow score of the pup isn't necessary relevant to the treatment... I wouldn't have a dog operated on just due to a bad score, they would need to be showing physical signs of discomfort. Also, I was under the impression that a dog needs to be 12months+ to give an accurate hip/elbow score so not really sure why they would be scoring the pups so young?

[kymbo]

So how do you tell what dogs will throw what if it is genetic? I know nothing about this, so excuse the probably dumb question.

The pup has not been scored, only his parents were ( 0/0 hips and elbows, both parents) The pup went lame, and xrays were sent to specialist in brissy somewhere, and they diagnosed ED.

The vet was talking about an operation he can have, but I don't think was pushing it so to speak. They are conservatively treating the lameness with whatever drugs the vet prescribed, rest & confinement, and joint guard etc...they will reassess it all in 2? months time unless he gets worse..

thanks

[sheenygirl]

Hi,

I am really sorry to hear that you are going through this. I know exactly how you are feeling. ED is such a cruel disease.

I bought a Golden retriever puppy from a breeder in QLd and both parents had 0/0 elbow scores. My girl started limping at 4 & 1/2 months and after 2 sets of xrays and a 8 wk course of cartrophen injections she was finally diagnosed with ED ( FCP). She had the operation mid September last year and a "large" fragment was removed. She healed well after the surgery but I did notice that she was starting to lay on her back and put her back legs in the air...I started to worry as I had previously had a shepherd with HD and this was a sign that gave that away.

In January this year she started Bunny hopping and it was back to the vets for more Xrays of her back legs. And yes we have discovered that she now has HD in both Hips. It is not severe enough to operate on but will gradually get worse as she ages. Both Hips scores from her parents were also good , and the vet has put this down to her putting too much weight on her back legs as she was growing ( to alleviate the ED). BTW. She was not overweight as a puppy and not exercised rigerously...nor were their stairs involved or any rough handling from anybody!

To make matters worse the Elbow has not healed as we had hoped and she still is quite lame in that leg. She has since has 2 cortisone injections into the join to try and settle the inflation so that scar tissue can heal over the area where the fragment was removed and again this has not been successful. So she is back to the vets again this week, he has one last option to try involving an experimental arthritic drug that he wants to inject into the joint. I know this sounds a bit desperate ....but desperate is what we are. I put my utmost faith in this vet and everyone that I have informed about him only has great things to say about him. Fingers crossed that it helps.

So I don't mean to worry you with my tale of woe. I know that you and your family would be going through a very worrying time right now. I know how shattering and heartbreaking it can be. I have a 7 yr old son who loves his dog desperately and replacing her ( the breeder has offered ) is just not an option, neither is the thought of putting her down. She has a beautiful happy nature depite her issues and we will take care of her the best we can as I am sure that you will do for yours.

So my only advice to you is to get the treatment ( including the operation if needed), as quickly as you can ...don't let him take too much weight in the back legs and end up with issues there as well.

I wish you all the best...let us know how he progresses.

[Miranda]

Just an update...my neice spoke to the breeder and she has been really helpful and concerned. She also confirmed that both the mum and dad of this pup have a 0/0 score for both elbows and hips, so this must be a fluke/throwback? My neice must have mixed up her info when she was telling me, but she was pretty upset. Maybe those scores were for another pup that she was looking at? Who knows....

Out of that litter, this pup is the only one sold to a pet home and all other littermates are being shown and are healthy.

Kym

Kymbo I'm probably being overly suspicious (and this is the second time I've made a negative post today and it's only 9.30am ), but I find it hard to believe that both parents had zero scores for both hips and elbows and that ALL the littermates are show quality and are in the ring. This has nothing to do with the fact that this puppy has developed ED, it is just that the whole thing seems too good to be true, usually there are only one or two show quality pups in a litter and it's extremely rare that every puppy but one are good enough for the show ring.

Have these people actually seen the paperwork showing the hip and elbow scores of the sire and dam, if they haven't then I suggest that they contact the breeder and ask for copies, zero elbow scores are common (at least in my breed), but zero hip scores on both sides as well is a little unlikely. I'm not saying that this breeder isn't honest, but it's only sensible to ask to see written documentation, anyone can say anything, but until you see proof you really don't know if it's true.

[woody2shoes]

Just an update...my neice spoke to the breeder and she has been really helpful and concerned. She also confirmed that both the mum and dad of this pup have a 0/0 score for both elbows and hips, so this must be a fluke/throwback? My neice must have mixed up her info when she was telling me, but she was pretty upset. Maybe those scores were for another pup that she was looking at? Who knows....

Out of that litter, this pup is the only one sold to a pet home and all other littermates are being shown and are healthy.

She offered a replacement pup if my neice chooses as well ( which is very nice)but at this stage it isn't an option.

My neice is going to play it by ear for the next couple of months, in conjunction to using joint guard/fish oil etc and keeping him confined. Then she will reassess what to do, with how he is responding. She *may* at that point get another xray and get a second opinion from a different specialist.

Thanks for all the help and imput on this thread.

Kym

Hi Kym,

I've just been down the surgery road with my young lab bitch (now 8mo) so I know how heartwrenching this all is for your neice.

We are now into my pup's 8th week post-surgery but it's been a long road to this point. I can only tell you what I've experienced.

My pup went lame aged 4 and a half months and was diagnosed with bilateral FCP at 6mo. She is from sound breeding stock with low hip scores and 0/0 elbows. I saw 4 different specialists before she was CT scanned and unequivocally diagnosed and she was subsequently operated on using the open athrotomy procedure (not keyhole surgery) to remove cartilage fragments. By week 7 post-surgery, she lost all signs of residual lameness. At the 8 week mark, she is now beginning to move quite normally in all three gaits.

I have no doubt that part of the recovery involves them becoming confident in their joints again, not to mention just getting fit from having been confined for so long. My pup is from working lines so time will tell if she will be able cope with training and trialling but all being well, I hope to be able to have her out there doing what she loves best - retrieving! Of course if that can't be then so be it - she will be a lounge lizard instead. I understand that she will be arthritic in those joints in time but if she gets a few years of good quality of life, I'll be delighted.

IMHO, I believe that early diagnosis and treatment is vital. My understanding is that the longer Elbow Dysplasia (whichever form it might be) continues untreated, the more damage is likely to be done to the joint/s. That is why I continued to search for a firm diagnosis when I was being told to just wait and see...I couldn't see any sense in that at all. My pup was in constant pain and that had to mean something wasn't right. Having said that, I wasn't about to let anyone operate unless they could give me absolute proof of what she had. Hence the CT scan.

Please let me know if I can be of any help. Oh, and by the way, my message is that there is light at the end of the tunnel - I personally know of another dog who was operated on aged 5mo with significant ED and joint changes who is now working hard and pulling up sound as any other dog I've seen.

Chin up,

w2s

Edited April 29, 2008 by woody2shoes