Elbow Dysplasia *update*

[kymbo]

Hi All

I hope someone can help and give advice :rolleyes:

My sisters daughter ( my neice) bought a choc lab from a breeder in Qld. She sighted the scores ( bitch was 0,0 and dog 0,2) and the puppy was transferred to her on main register; my neice just wanted a family pet tho, so he will be desexed at some stage.

The puppy went lame at 6-7 months, and the vet ended up xraying hip/shoulder/elbow left side. It came back as mild ED on the left elbow. He was given anti inflamatories etc, and he came good, so to speak. I presume that as it came good and also the vet did not indicate at the time how serious ED was, that my neice did not inform the breeder at that point.

He went lame again but on the other side, over the weekend, and the vet said it is elbow dysplasia in both elbows now. The vet didn't xray that time, but is 99% certain ( so he says) The dog is only 10 months old now.

Now my sister has been reading up, as the vet said most people would just PTS, but the puppy is just so full of life that they want to give him every chance. Apparently there is an operation that they can have, and good results are indicated if the dog is under two years old.

Has anyone ever had this operation on their young dog, and what were the results?

How do you manage? Joint guard? What vet treatments?

From what I understand, the breeder implied that 2 was an ok score, when showing my neice all the paperwork. I presume it is not. I also do understand that even dogs with 0 scores all round can have a pup that gets ED/HD.

She is ringing the breeder shortly to tell her what is happening.

I also read in a post here *somewhere* that a score of 2 in a lab was BAD ....has my neice any comeback to the breeder?

Handing the dog back is not an option, nor is PTS ( at this point in time) ...but should the breeder refund her money or at least part?

This operation, if it happens, is going to cost $$$ I presume

The whole family is ripped apart atm, as they thought they did the right thing by not going to a pet shop, and to rub salt into the wound, her ex bought a pet shop lab a few weeks after she did, that is perfectly fine ( at this point in time)

Any advice/opinions greatly appreciated...

Kym

Edited April 27, 2008 by kymbo

[Dogsfevr]

scores are no guarantee but they are a tool for giving the best chance for progeny.

Personally i would be phoning the breeder & asking them what they fell but i would also be making sure the vet knows what there talking about .Where the xrays sent away to be read??

[kymbo]

The xrays were sent to a specialist near Brissy to be read the first time...no xrays have been taken this time because of the diagnosis on the other elbow a couple of months prior.

I have given my sis another vets name to go to, for a second opinion and also for xrays on this joint, tho they will still be sent to the specialist to be read again. I personally don't like the vet my neice goes to, but it is her call.

thanks :rolleyes:

[poodlefan]

Is the puppy chubby?

What sort of exercise regime has it been on?

[Arawyn]

From what I understand, the breeder implied that 2 was an ok score, when showing my neice all the paperwork. I presume it is not. I also do understand that even dogs with 0 scores all round can have a pup that gets ED/HD.

Do you know how far the vet went to appraise the situation? Quality of the advice can vary on the experience of the vet.

The elbow scoring is based on the International Elbow Working Group Scoring.

So a 2 on an elbow is a moderate expression of a joint defect.

0 no elbow defect

1 mild elbow defect

2 moderate elbow defect

3 severe elbow defect.

It is a different scoring mechanism to the hip scores.

Where is the dog based (in QLD?), I would suggest finding a Vet who is very experienced with joint problems

(most I have seen appear to have some relationship to the greyhound or horse community).

In Vic, I would recommend Monash Vet.

At the very least, she could try to minimise any additional stress. Keep the dog at a healthy weight, avoid hard surfaces on walks (only walk on grass if possible). Try to provide light exercise with minimal stress on the joint until a professional can fully appraise the situation.

It seems to be a bit of a gamble with elbows.

One of our girls is from a mother with UAP (a severe elbow fault) and she has clear elbows now, I hope the care and attention we gave to minimise the potential for damage had some impact but who knows.

[kymbo]

Do you know how far the vet went to appraise the situation? Quality of the advice can vary on the experience of the vet.

I have no idea where the breeder got her scores done...

She is keeping him quiet, and always has done really.

I just want to get as much info as I possibly can for them, and I *hope* that they then got maybe to a different vet better informed to ask different questions to make an informed decission...

Regardless, I think they will go to the specialist center in Logan? for any major stuff like the operation...I think that is the best place around here? That is where the xrays got read the first time.

She is near Ipswich, the dog was bought northish of Brissy somewhere.

Thanks again :rolleyes:

[kymbo]

Puppy has never been chubby, except when really young...you know that age under 12 weeks where they look like balls of fluff?

My sister has had GSPs for years and years, and they are fed a great diet. Her husband had Labs, abd they were very aware of not overfeeding the puppy. I saw him on the weekend, and I consider him 'just' covered really. Not fat at all.

I don't know exactly what is fed, but their other dog is on eukunubra and some special diet stuff; I presume the puppy would be fed well :rolleyes:

[Miranda]

Personally I wouldn't breed from a dog with an elbow score of 2, I wouldn't even be happy breeding with a score of 1, however clear elbows are the norm in my breed whereas elbow defects seem to be more widespread in labs. If the puppy has UAP (ununited anconeal process) he can have surgery and there is a very good chance that it will be successful, however the recovery period is reasonably long and they will have to restrict his activity for quite a while to avoid swelling and inflammation. He will also have arthritic changes that may need medication as he ages.

Edited April 23, 2008 by Miranda

[~Archie~]

Mum has a Labrador with elbow dysplasia, we opted not to operate on him.

We have tried a few things and he seems to be going really well on what he's on now.

He has pentosan courses every 6 - 12 months and is on joint guard everyday.

We use to just have him on rimadyl or metacam, but he would still pull up sore every so often and especially in the cooler weather.

He has a limp every so often if he has been racing around with the 4 other dogs Mum has, but you cant tell otherwise.

[kymbo]

Thanks for all the replies...

Boston girl. how old is your mums dog now, and how long has he been on treatment?

[Miranda]

What exactly is wrong with the dog? There are three elbow problems which are loosely referred to as 'elbow dysplasia' although that's a pretty inaccurate term. FCP and OCD can produce temporary lameness that often reponds to rest and medication although surgery is sometimes necessary if the lameness persists. UAP nearly always requires surgical intervention.

[ILuvAmstaffs]

Has anyone ever had this operation on their young dog, and what were the results?

How do you manage? Joint guard? What vet treatments?

My boy was operated on for ED (FCP) at around 8 months of age, specifically he had the shard removed & also an ulna oestectomy. He was quite lame prior to the operation & several courses of cartrophen shots had not helped (this was during the time he was being diagnosed.) His ED is bilateral, but so far only the right leg had caused visible side effects.

He will be 2 on the 29th April & if you saw him now you would not know that he has quite severe arthritis. As far as supps go, for us, we have found that Flexicose has shown the greatest improvement & I also give him ester c tabs.

If you would like to read some of what we went thru, this was the thread I posted at the time of trying to find a diagnosis (might be helpful or atleast nie to know you are not alone)

http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?showtopic=80629

Malleer's dog had bilateral ED if I remember right & the op was successful.

We had the op done at Sydney Uni Vet Specialist centre & it cost somewhere around $2500 for the one leg... and that was approx the same as was quoted by the original specialist that made the diagnosis.

[~Archie~]

Thanks for all the replies...

Boston girl. how old is your mums dog now, and how long has he been on treatment?

Mum's dog is nearly 10, he has been on Joint Guard for nearly 18 months, the pentosan injections have been going on for years though

Edited April 23, 2008 by BostonGirl

[kymbo]

What exactly is wrong with the dog? There are three elbow problems which are loosely referred to as 'elbow dysplasia' although that's a pretty inaccurate term. FCP and OCD can produce temporary lameness that often reponds to rest and medication although surgery is sometimes necessary if the lameness persists. UAP nearly always requires surgical intervention.

I haven't read the report myself, so I don't exactly know which one it is. But the vet said about an operation, so I *presume* it is one that responds to an operation. Hopefully I will find out more very soon...

[Nevafollo]

Has anyone ever had this operation on their young dog, and what were the results?

How do you manage? Joint guard? What vet treatments?

My boy was operated on for ED (FCP) at around 8 months of age, specifically he had the shard removed & also an ulna oestectomy. He was quite lame prior to the operation & several courses of cartrophen shots had not helped (this was during the time he was being diagnosed.) His ED is bilateral, but so far only the right leg had caused visible side effects.

He will be 2 on the 29th April & if you saw him now you would not know that he has quite severe arthritis. As far as supps go, for us, we have found that Flexicose has shown the greatest improvement & I also give him ester c tabs.

If you would like to read some of what we went thru, this was the thread I posted at the time of trying to find a diagnosis (might be helpful or atleast nie to know you are not alone)

http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?showtopic=80629

Malleer's dog had bilateral ED if I remember right & the op was successful.

We had the op done at Sydney Uni Vet Specialist centre & it cost somewhere around $2500 for the one leg... and that was approx the same as was quoted by the original specialist that made the diagnosis.

glad u posted, was going to suggest the OP contact u

[ILuvAmstaffs]

Thanks Ash. I'm always dropping in & keeping a look out for ED threads. I know how hard it was trying to find info when we were going through the diagnosis with Diesel.

[blacklabrador]

I bred a pup 18 months ago with severe ED from parents with perfect scores.

Yes he had surgery - by a Vet called Richard Mitchell. He is the only vet in Qld who is doing this operation by arthroscopy. That means he makes small incisions and puts a camera and instruments in rather than opening up the whole joint. The recovery is much faster this way. My boy was back to normal in 48 hours but had to be crated for a month.

There isn't a whole lot they can do with ED but a consult with Richard will tell you what you need to know. He is based on the Sunshine Coast.

[blacklabrador]

Kym - make sure the score you're talking about is in fact the elbow not the hip score. If it's a hip score it's great, if it's an elbow score that dog shouldn't have been bred from.

[blacklabrador]

Is the puppy chubby?

What sort of exercise regime has it been on?

Having an overweight or overexercised dog will NOT cause ED in a normal dog with no predisposition. It will only allow ED to be expressed if a strong tendency already exists. According to Dr Mitchell who is a specialist in this area this is well supported by research.

My Guido showed signs of an unusual gait from the time he was a small pup. It was noticable by the time I put him on lead to start show training him and was observed by others besides myself at the age of 12 weeks. We thought he was uncoordinated but it just got worse. He was diagnosed at about 4 months of age.

The ED surgery was something I did to improve his quality of life - to reduce his pain and keep him painfree for longer. The other thing I did was very carefully screen his new owners to make sure he wasn't having to climb stairs or have rough play with other dogs or children. I did a lot of rehab with him prior to the surgery in a canine hydrotherapy pool. His shoulder muscles didn't start building until after the surgery though. Surgery cost $3000.

Edited April 23, 2008 by blacklabrador

[kymbo]

Kym - make sure the score you're talking about is in fact the elbow not the hip score. If it's a hip score it's great, if it's an elbow score that dog shouldn't have been bred from.

You have me wondering now, but I am sure that it was an elbow score* trying to remember ph convo*...I will have to check on that. I suppose it really is buyer beware as the breeder was up front with the scores apparently after my neice enquired; she saw the paperwork. Hind sight of knowing a 2 score is dicky to say the least is a wonderful thing. I can't begin to understand what was said to my neice to make her think that a 2 was fine?? Maybe she just presumed that if the dogs were tested and then bred from that all must be ok...who knows?

Thanks for the info re: the vet too.

Thanks for the link too ILuvAmstaffs . I am going to print all this off for my sis to wade through and gleam what she can, and will update after my neice talks to the breeder/vet again.

It is hard being a third wheel so to speak as I don't know all the ins and outs

Thanks agian everyone