Arya Posted April 20, 2008 Share Posted April 20, 2008 Hi everyone, I am having some issues with my dog's stays. Last four trials in Open scores would have been: 191 193 193 (this was generous as my hand signals were crap) 187 But each time we lost out on the stays (well, last two I withdrew her so as not to have a failure) Now don't get me wrong, I'm thrilled with this. This is a dog that would not work in the trial ring and would not leave the start post last year (THANKS FOR THE START POST HELP TO PTOLOMY!!!) and NOW, wow, I am so happy with her. On a bad day it's still a pass in the ringwork in Open yet it took me 17 trials to get her Novice title. She did out of sight stays all summer in mock trial situations at KCC Park in Vic each week, no problem. Plus at club. BUT, we had a little issue in which I was at club and she dropped. I went back to sit her up and as I did so, a rotti next to us leapt over and onto her back. The rotti did no damage at all and was over in a second with no trouble but it has made my Tess seem to realise that something *could* happen when I am not there! Now I have joined the rotti club here in Vic and can do their training nights with my GSD as they are open to other dogs and she will do stays in sight not too bad in between all rottis so I believe the issue is more a simple sudden realisation that things can happen rather than the dog incident itself. The dog didn't even growl, just sort of went on her back. It is a friendly dog really. But Tess is nervy and took ages to get her to work in the ring and now stays are wrecked. She whinges and cries as I walk away and runs after me. When I work alone and do stays alone there is no problem. It is the proximity of other dogs. My plan of action: The training I did last time was all alone. I created a kind of 'safety bubble' psychologically with the dog by training her on her target blanket with her target back behind her. Multiple returns and walks away. As didn't have access to a lot of dogs except at club once weekly I trained her in 'higher stress' areas like busy shopping centres tied up of course. All seemed to work. Now? I don't know. I have gone back to basics, repeating this. I am doing stays for her dinner. I am laying a circular track behind the sit stay in training when alone and releasing her to the track (she tracks too and loves it) as a reward after sit stay. I have swapped hand and tell her stay with left hand instead of right. I am doing multiple stays a day but of a necessity alone. I am taking her to KCC Park and doing out of sight stays all around the park (but alone most of the time... wasn't a problem before but obviously is now). It was suggested to me today to rub my hand on the ground in front of her in the downs to leave my scent there and to step sideways a little when I leave her so as not to automatically trigger the heel off response. All good which I will employ! How have others found this sort of problem to fix? Did it take a long time for you? What do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted April 20, 2008 Share Posted April 20, 2008 Sounds like your girl has so much potential Arya! One question for you - what do you do when she breaks the stay? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoemonster Posted April 20, 2008 Share Posted April 20, 2008 Thinking about what could help but in the mean time, I just realised who you are! As it must have been you in our class at RCV on wed!!! Will you be coming every week? If you think it would help we could do a few more stays before and after classes, and I'm sure there would be others who would do it too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted April 20, 2008 Share Posted April 20, 2008 Just more practice with other doggies I think. She needs to regain her confidence that she isn't going to get jumped on. What a bummer that happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted April 20, 2008 Share Posted April 20, 2008 I think the things that you employed a great first off Arya. The biggest thing to remember is of course not to make a big deal if your dog breaks a stay (as I know that you know) Go back and reward often Have the reward behind her - remember that the dog will move toward the reinforcement, so if the reward is behind her - she will be more 'settled' when you leave (theoretically) I don't know whether this would be any good or not (I may be waaay off!)... but perhaps, knowing how drivey Tess is - maybe we should add a play game/ retrieve in there - if she holds a stay - she gets toys/tug etc. Of course she may need settling later, but this may help her 'enjoy' staying/ regain her confidence at first. I know a friend of mine tried this with her dog (similar reasons to you) and it REALLY helped him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogdude Posted April 20, 2008 Share Posted April 20, 2008 I would maybe go back to basics and proof with the other dogs placed at a comfortable distance for her and slowly work your way back in. Perhaps a short spell may be of benifit too? I would maybe focus on Stays only,and make that her only opportunity for fun time out with mum for 4 or 5 weeks. Whatever time you do spend training, use it to set up friends for stays practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted April 20, 2008 Share Posted April 20, 2008 What command do you use for stay??? a generic stay - maybe you could change the command to sit (for the sit stay and drop/down for the down stay) and work on building duration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helen Posted April 20, 2008 Share Posted April 20, 2008 (edited) Our training club just subscribed to an obedience magazine called Front And Finish. They interviewed a lot of people who have left the obedience ring to go to other dogs sports. The main reason people left obedience was due to the possibility of harm being done or having been done to their dog in the stays. The biggest change suggested to the obedience rules was to allow dogs to do stays separately, having 2 rings running next to each other, one for stays one for individual exercises - with the hide being placed in the ring so the owner would have instant control of the dog if it moved. A great suggestion I reckon. The introduction of Rally-O here would be another big bonus for people not wanting to put their dog in these circumstances Tilly had a problem with stays some time ago because of a rough human who treated his dog very badly next to her. It was only after I didn't go to training for about a year that she was confident enough to do a stay and not follow me for her own safety Edited April 20, 2008 by helen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ptolomy Posted April 21, 2008 Share Posted April 21, 2008 At what point does Tess move in the stays eg as you are walking away, 1min into the stay....? Hmm - thinking outside the square - give Tess a week off - no stays at all - continue your other training - introduce some new UD or UDX things - like sitting in the box or between cones - teach her to jump on a table like in agility or to touch a target and then after a week go back to group stays insight (but with the dogs a tad further away than what they would be in a trial) - I would start by practising walking away about turning and then going straight back to her - working your way to being able to walk right across the other side of the oval (with the other handlers) - this will take a couple of minutes anyway, so you are in fact increasing the time she is sitting there, (but you are still insight) Make sure as you are walking away you don't turn to look at her. Each time you walk back to her and reward and tell her how smart she is, break the exercise off and have a play with your hose pipe. If she drops or breaks from the stay - I don't think I would be repositioning her as this is giving her a second chance, I would be putting her quietly back in the car, closing the door for a couple of minutes and then getting her out again and trying again - but at a lesser distance and with the other dogs further away from me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arya Posted April 22, 2008 Author Share Posted April 22, 2008 Sounds like your girl has so much potential Arya!One question for you - what do you do when she breaks the stay? This is a good point SD. Of necessity because of where it has happened I have had to RETURN to her. Just what she wants!!! So this is why I withdrew her. I don't want failures that indicate to her she gets me back if she breaks. Frustrating AAGH! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arya Posted April 22, 2008 Author Share Posted April 22, 2008 Thinking about what could help but in the mean time, I just realised who you are! As it must have been you in our class at RCV on wed!!! Will you be coming every week?If you think it would help we could do a few more stays before and after classes, and I'm sure there would be others who would do it too Oh Shoemonster, this would be great!!! Thank you so much!!! Yep I will be coming every week I loved it, think it is a really great training session. I get there a bit late though as I have Sch. first though my dog doesnt work much before I come I have to be there for a bit. But will be there each week :D Love to meet you! Heather Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoemonster Posted April 22, 2008 Share Posted April 22, 2008 Excellent, we wont be there tomorrow night :D but are normally there every week, look forward to meeting you properly! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arya Posted April 22, 2008 Author Share Posted April 22, 2008 At what point does Tess move in the stays eg as you are walking away, 1min into the stay....? Hmm - thinking outside the square - give Tess a week off - no stays at all - continue your other training - introduce some new UD or UDX things - like sitting in the box or between cones - teach her to jump on a table like in agility or to touch a target and then after a week go back to group stays insight (but with the dogs a tad further away than what they would be in a trial) - I would start by practising walking away about turning and then going straight back to her - working your way to being able to walk right across the other side of the oval (with the other handlers) - this will take a couple of minutes anyway, so you are in fact increasing the time she is sitting there, (but you are still insight) Make sure as you are walking away you don't turn to look at her. Each time you walk back to her and reward and tell her how smart she is, break the exercise off and have a play with your hose pipe. If she drops or breaks from the stay - I don't think I would be repositioning her as this is giving her a second chance, I would be putting her quietly back in the car, closing the door for a couple of minutes and then getting her out again and trying again - but at a lesser distance and with the other dogs further away from me. Thanks Ptolomy! It is a bit of a disaster really as she cries and moves the second we all walk away. Well, she did but not at the rotti club! She sat them there but it was indoors, totally different surroundings to where the disturbance to her stays occurred. I have indeed given her two days off stays so far and will give her another couple in the hope to kind of 'clear her mind' - except at rotti club tomorrow night. She knows all UD (was so proud on weekend at club comp got thru the whole ringwork and only missed a jump in box and directed jumping which she does know well but there you go. What a great girl!) I will do a lot of what you said with the going right back to her and rewards the car idea is great too. I have been doing sit and drop on the move for BH too and want to start some of UDX stuff too for Friends of Obedience nights next summer. I would love to trial both UDX and UD with her I know it is rarely done but Ian Woollard the guy who is UDX expert here in Vic says it can be done :D Same as you said LP, I will also go with the toy and I have been laying a track behind her. My thoughts on this is tracking requires independant thought from her 'without mum beside her' kind of thing and she loves it, absolutely adores tracking. So the reward of the short circular track behind her is on her mind. I thought to do that for the sits and ball or two hoses for the downs. A judge at Croydon (who was that again LP he was such a lovely older man and even remembered to remove his hat for the stands for exam and was SO nice and courteous... not that they all aren't but he was extra nice I thought) said to rub my hand on the ground in front of her in the downs so she could have a bit of my scent to calm her as I walked away too. We will get there. She has blossomed so much. I am so happy with her even though she is not doing her stays yet. I can't believe my scaredy dog is loving the work so much now. She is a joy to work in and out of trials now for the most part!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arya Posted April 22, 2008 Author Share Posted April 22, 2008 And thanks everyone for your help it is much appreciated :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted April 23, 2008 Share Posted April 23, 2008 Are you sure you are not being..........um........too mummy? Most women are, including me. Sit means sit. Stay means stay. Only you and highly regarded people/trainers who know your dog can really make suggestions. I would start being a bit firmer, IF APPLICABLE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arya Posted April 24, 2008 Author Share Posted April 24, 2008 Are you sure you are not being..........um........too mummy? Most women are, including me. Sit means sit. Stay means stay. Only you and highly regarded people/trainers who know your dog can really make suggestions. I would start being a bit firmer, IF APPLICABLE. Lablover, I am a sucker for my dog but no way!!! I have tried being firmer but in this instance it creates total mental collapse. This dog has major mental blowouts, really! It can happen from something like a stay. It can happen from overexcitement. It can happen from lots of distraction. It is not good to watch and a temperament fault I don't like to see in a dog. Otherwise she is a fantastic working dog. She is no angel at all and I will correct her and firmly too, if she is out of order. But in this instance, it is shocking lack of nerve. One little incident.... not even that stressful to most dogs but she has a major blowout in the head! I have had to turn into Einstein to train this dog, it gives me the pip sometimes but hey, I have learnt so much and love her to bits anyways so all good Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted April 24, 2008 Share Posted April 24, 2008 (edited) Sounds like your girl has so much potential Arya!One question for you - what do you do when she breaks the stay? This is a good point SD. Of necessity because of where it has happened I have had to RETURN to her. Just what she wants!!! So this is why I withdrew her. I don't want failures that indicate to her she gets me back if she breaks. Frustrating AAGH! It's a difficult one isn't it! I like to use a NRM, especially with sensitive dogs.....sounds bizarre but I was delighted when Zig, with great uncertainty, broke his down stay yesterday for the first time ever when I was training him. He likes to do the thinking for both of us! I just said "Oh well" (which he knows very well to mean that he's missed out on a reward ), walked back towards him but ignored him, passed him and kept on walking - no correction, no response at all. The look on his face was priceless He raced after me and did the most beautiful "glued to my side" heelwork in an attempt to earn his reward. I asked him to drop/stay and he just seemed so much more solid on the stay that time. Of course, he got a very high value reward after doing a lovely stay (praise + food!!). Good luck and be patient, Arya - hope to meet you at a trial one day Edited April 24, 2008 by The Spotted Devil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted April 24, 2008 Share Posted April 24, 2008 (edited) Remember that if it is that your dog feels uncomfortable due to the presence of other dogs (when in the 'stay'), then there is an extra "load" that she does not feel in other less intense environments. When a load is increased, we need to adjust training so we can decrease another different load, so that we can achieve the outcome (for training purposes) we are seeking. We build up each 'load' separately and then add them back in bit by bit until the dog can cope with the "whole" maximum loads. Consequently, I would decrease the load of 'distance' and work to initially maintain the 'load' of time. (Remember - the 'load' of other dogs is present.) When you then work up to increasing the load of 'distance', reduce the load of 'time'. Initially, you could also reduce the load of 'intensity' (ie other dogs) by giving her some distance from them. I would not walk away initially .... ie not completely with my back to her. Watch for muscle movement. Go out to a distance but don't stay out - go straight back in (I often treat at this point, low level praise) and then return out, then back again (ie repeat). Make it easy and make it clear. Provide regular feedback to her throughout. It should come back to her fairly quickly. In amongst all of this, be conscious of your own body language and make sure that you are not tensing (perhaps in anticipation that she is going to break position). ETA: Basing the above on the premise that she IS breaking because she has lost confidence, not because you've made too many allowances as a result of the 'incident' and that this has now for the most or total part become a learnt behaviour. Edited April 24, 2008 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prodigybxr Posted April 24, 2008 Share Posted April 24, 2008 (edited) I would go back to doing groups in sight- more novice type stays, to regain her confidence. ETA: Oops, what Erny said above Edited April 24, 2008 by prodigybxr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 Are you sure you are not being..........um........too mummy? Most women are, including me. Sit means sit. Stay means stay. Only you and highly regarded people/trainers who know your dog can really make suggestions. I would start being a bit firmer, IF APPLICABLE. Lablover, I am a sucker for my dog but no way!!! I have tried being firmer but in this instance it creates total mental collapse. This dog has major mental blowouts, really! It can happen from something like a stay. It can happen from overexcitement. It can happen from lots of distraction. It is not good to watch and a temperament fault I don't like to see in a dog. Otherwise she is a fantastic working dog. She is no angel at all and I will correct her and firmly too, if she is out of order. But in this instance, it is shocking lack of nerve. One little incident.... not even that stressful to most dogs but she has a major blowout in the head! I have had to turn into Einstein to train this dog, it gives me the pip sometimes but hey, I have learnt so much and love her to bits anyways so all good Good for you, keep on loving her. Hope she continues to improve, especially as you like competing. Ask for an experienced highly regarded SUCCESSFUL proven competitor/trainer to watch both of you. Again good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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