Rx Diet Questions

[kja]

We just got back from our road trip to the vet's and the vet says that Dora's urine was all screwy (weeks ago when she did the test, then we put her on antibiotics)...her ph was 9+ when it's meant to be 5. I understand acidic and alkaline, but not 100% on how it all works.

Anyway, the vet has said she needs to start a four week strict diet of a special Rx food - s/d for four weeks then c/d forever after that. I'm just starting to do research on the whole thing and would appreciate any input you all have!

She said it was dog specific and just changing her diet wasn't enough and there was nothing else to do except this diet. She said it was very serious and that we couldn't feed Dora anything else at all, no matter how small, once she switches to the new regime.

[Dogsfevr]

The good old hills diet yeah right crap stuff.

What exactly did the vet diagnose .

I would ask your vet for a the basic laymens terms diagnosis in writting so you can undertsand exactly what you are dealing with.

[kja]

Thanks! I've just reread the stuff the vet gave me and it doesn't say anything really:

"Xray abdo to check for bladder stones

NAD on xray

Change to s/d diet, for four weeks

then change onto c/d diet"

The other papers, that she kind of implied had more information turn out to be all about the GA after effects and some generic pet stuff.

She told me that she'd never seen urine results like that before and that it meant that Dora was now predisposed to problems like bladder stones and this was the only course of action.

I have a call in and am waiting for a call back to try to get some more specific info to help with my research and to add here. OK, just got off the phone:

she has crystal urea (I apologise now for the spellings, I was jotting notes as the vet talked) with calcium oxylate and struvite crystals. Vet says four weeks on the s/d diet to dissolve the remaining crystals then anther urine test. Dora did not have a urine test on Wednesday; the results the vet was referring to were from a couple of weeks ago before we put her on antibiotics because she also had a bacterial component.

Vet says her urine is too basic and needs to be more acidic. Probably a diet issue, but she said there really isn't anyway to tell exactly what causes the crystals. Says the s/d then c/d diet is the only way to keep her urine where it needs to be and avoid more crystals forming.

Edited April 18, 2008 by kja

[Miranda]

kja what were the antibiotics for, did she have a UTI? A dog that suffers from UTI's and has alkaline urine can form struvite bladder stones. If the urine can be made more acidic the dog is less likely to develop UTI's and if you don't have infections the likelihood of bladder stones developing is also less. Meat will also make the urine more acidic. Things like encouraging your dog to drink more liquids (if she won't drink more water try mixing a little milk with it), mixing low salt chicken stock or gravy with her food and making sure that she goes out to urinate every few hours can also help by keeping the urine dilute.

Feeding the canned CD instead of the kibble can also be helpful as it's a wet food and adds water to the dog's system. The Hill's prescription diets are horrendously expensive considering that the majority of the ingredients are crap, but it's hard to know what else to base your dog's diet on if you have a dog predisposed to forming stones.

[kja]

Thanks, Miranda!

She seems to drink a good amount through the day. We also add a cup - two cups of veggies to her kibble each night (the mix from the freezer - carrots, peas etc). We did change her to a lower type of kibble about six weeks ago as we couldn't get the Advance Fat Girl food up for a while and had to go with Supercoat. We now have the Advance here, but if we have to use this other diet we won't start her on it.

She has no stones. Has not had any stones that we know of. She did have crystals in her urine.

I keep reading that the Hill's stuff is actually not that great so would love to find some alternatives.

[Miranda]

Yes the Hills stuff is crap, if you find an alternative diet please let me know. I have a boy here who has had bladder stones removed and we have him on CD and lots of meat. At the moment his urine is 6 and the vet is quite happy with that. He is currently on a 6 weeks course of Rilexine as he had blood in his urine a few weeks ago and was diagnosed with a staph infection which is not good news as infection means that he could form more stones.

Bloody dogs cost a fortune

[Dogsfevr]

I would suggest googling Dalmations.This breed is highly prone to what your vet is talking about.

Minis can be very prone to stones BUT red meat is one of the biggest factors & to much protein.

It should also be noted that the diet suggested has been known to increase pancreatitis in my breed if all the factors havent been weighed up & many vets are not informed of what the pros/cons of the hills diet is.

There are maunfacter warnings for certain scenarios.

Most of the people i now who have used the hills diet havent had any success but did make up there own diets after much research .

There is some goo dinfo on the stones if you google

Edited April 18, 2008 by settrlvr

[kja]

I can't seem to find anything specifically related to Rhodesian Ridgebacks at the moment.

There is a lot of info out there and I'm trying to sift through it all!

[Miranda]

My dog developed struvite stones which are less likely to form if his urine is kept acidic and dilute hence the CD and meat diet. Dalmations are prone to urate stones and the predisposition to high urate excretion is autosomal recessive in this breed, for this condition you need to keep the urine alkaline. You also need to to keep the urine alkaline if the dog is prone to calcium oxalate stones.

[Dogsfevr]

S/D diet is not meant to be continued as a regular diet after the stone has been dissolved; Hills recommends not feeding S/D diet any longer than 6 months. Aside from the long treatment time, an important disadvantage of this approach is the possibility of urinary tract obstruction as the stone gets smaller and an unsuccessful attempt to pass the stone occurs. This is potentially a life-threatening hazard for male dogs as they possess the narrow urethra.

S/D diet is very high in fat and high in salt. It should not be fed to patients at risk for pancreatitis, patients with heart disease, kidney insufficiency, or high blood pressure.(this has caused major issues in my breed)

[kja]

As I understand it, she will only be on the s/d diet for four weeks.

She does not have any stones.

She has/had crystals and again as I understand things, this four week period is to dissolve any remaining crystals.

Then she is to go on the c/d diet for the rest of her life.

The high fat and salt worries me a bit. We are trying hard to drop Dora's weight and she is on the right path - she's now 44.28kgs so we have about 8 more to go.

[emilee]

Kja,

you might want to subscribe to the yahoo kidney k9 group, they have diets in the files section for dogs with crystals, in particular a calcium oxalate diet, and they have vets experienced in these problems on the group.

this is a run down of what the list is about.

This list is about helping each other reach a new level of understanding of the various aspects of kidney disease, and associated complications. It is for people wanting to learn more about nutrition for dogs with kidney problems, which include stones and crystals, renal failure and other urinary and bladder problems. Some examples of discussion on this list include recipe sharing, use of vitamins and minerals, use of herbs and herbal tinctures and any other nutritional support for kidney care.

If this link works it is the homepage http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/K9Kidne...yguid=269548334

if not use this email to subscribe to the list [email protected]

[lucknow]

Only thing I can add is that because she had an infection when the urine sample was taken the ph could be artifically high. I am not saying bacteria could throw results out by that much but if they are contributing I could change things a bit. I think cranberry is an acidifier and didn't you look at starting her on some? As you can't whip an expert out of nowhere I would try asking for some urine test strips to check ph as you go along. If you can get it low enough a wean onto a trial home diet may be possible. Either way if she was so high knowing how she responds could be extremely useful.

If it makes you feel better at all I have seen lots of cats and a few dogs on Hills Prescription Diets for urinary problems with happy stable results.

One last thing is that there are or used to be acidifer tablets available, they just became a little redundant after Hills range as majority of patients are cats and not very accepting of tablets. If you are really unsure speak to your vet re alternatives.

Good luck, I know how worrying this has been for you.