Changing My Dog's Diet - Need To Work Out Something Healthy

[SammyZ]

Tess32, thanks so much for the breakdown. I'd love to feed Keeda barf, but I don't think I can bring myself to feed her raw heart and other such things! I'm on my way to becoming vegetarian and while I realize that my ethics shouldn't dictate my dog's diet, I think I literally would feel sick handling all of these parts of dead animals Slabs of meat, wings, and other such things I'm fine with, but actual organs and such, I couldn't do it.

I understand regarding the vegetarian thing (coming from an ex-veg gal) but my mindset is that I hate nothing more than wasting an animal that has been slaughtered by only using the 'good' bits and packaging them to look as little like the animal as possible. I think it is much bettter, if that animal is going to be slaughtered, to use every bit (and feeding dogs liver, heart, chicken frames etc etc does the trick) and be respectful to that life. I think being unaware of where our meat comes from, desensitized by only buying pre-packaged meat etc has proliferated our use of meat for breakfast, lunch and dinner iykwim.

Just another take on it and I know it is a very personal decision

[Bow Wowy]

Hey Liza,

If it helps, here is my weekly diet for my youngest dog. It really doesn't cost much at all.

Monday:

Breakfast: Vegetables, 100grams of liver, 1 chicken wing

Dinner: Lamb Neck

Tuesday:

Breakfast:Vegetables, beef, yoghurt

Dinner: Duck or chicken frames

Wednesday

Breakfast: Vegetables, salmon or sardines

Dinner: Maryland, Goat ribs or or turkey wings

Thursday:

Breakfast: Vegetables, 100 grams offal (kidney, pancreas), one chicken wing

Dinner: Lamb Neck

Friday

Breakfast: Vegetables, heart and tongue

Dinner: Duck frames, one egg

Saturday

Breakfast: Vegetables, chicken wing

Dinner: Maryland, turkey or goat

Sunday

Breakfast: Vegetables, beef tongue or heart

Dinner: Chicken frames

Sounds delicious, can I come to dinner on Saturday?

[Gomez the Norfolk]

What about feedng BARF patties, then you don't have to "see" what is in them, you can get the frozen and you wouldn't even have to touch raw meat...

[jillybean]

Even if you bought a good quality kibble and fed her that for all her meals it would still work out less than $25 a week.

My beagle gets Eagle Pack (about $90 for 15kg bag) and that lasts her for a few months, although she gets that mixed with bones etc.

[SarasMum]

Do you have a Lenards chicken shop close by? My OH goes there around 5pm and orders some chicken for us, at the same time he always asks if they have any carcasses. He normally gets around 2 crates full for nix! Now you couldnt carry that on public transport but I am sure you could get a bag full.

I feed my two large dogs Advance which I can get for $80 for 20kg on special. This lasts nearly 2 months. I add cheap Coles homebrand sardines in oil which they love, cheese, yoghurt, an egg here and there. Any leftover vegies from dinner also go on in their bowl.

For a little dog it doesnt have to be expensive to feed. I can get 4 lamb brisket bones for around $3. This would be 4 entire meals for your small dog. I think the initial outlay of dry food will be the biggest cost but once thats done it will be fairly cheap to feed. Those rolls are gross and are quite expensive, same with canned food.

I think that if you have a look around you will be surprised what you can find.

[Liza]

Apologies for the very late reply, we just got our internet fixed after a few days of downtime. The router is still cutting in and out so I'm trying to make it fast!

To those who inquired - the brand of sausage my mom has been buying is Protadog

Laffi, my mom would never accept feeding her JUST dry food, she thinks it isn't 'good enough' I'd like to feed raw food, don't know if I am able to seeing as I honestly would not be able to bring myself to handle the organs and whole animals and such :S

The BARF patties suggestion sounds great and someone suggested to look for a Better Pets & Gardens in Perth, but so far I haven't found where it might be. Does any other shop sell them?

SarasMum, we used to buy Advance, but Keeda liked the taste of Purina Beneful more - which is the better choice? She hates dry food in general, we usually have to hand feed it to her or else she'll leave it there all day and ants get into the food. I tried taking her bowl away if she doesn't eat the food within 10 minutes and then giving her the dry food again at dinner time to eat if she's hungry, instead of feeding her the sausage, but my mom thinks of that as overly harsh and feeds more scraps to her later in the night if I do this >.<

[westiemum]

Hi Liza,

I feed a modified BARF which was originally supervised by my vet... interestingly I don't feed organs and offal as my guys don't like it!! :D I find its relatively cheap - particularly when compared to the supermarket stuff (which I think looks absolutely revolting anyway and can't bring myself to feeding it to my guys!!). It probably isn't true barf but I've found this works beautifully for us. And when I'm preparing my guys veggies at night, friends think I'm making our dinner!! Basically I feed as raw as possible, a mixture of meat and veggies, and bones and am very strict about treats - mine mainly get raw carrot!!! (Which they love BTW!). I can also recommend the BARF patties for little dogs - like you I'm far too busy to make my own barf mix so I pay for the convenience of the patties - mine get half a pattie each each night so a roll (17.00) lasts two weeks by the time they get at least one fish meal a week (home brand mackeral or sardines). They are packed full of goodies and my guys love them and they are thriving on them. They also get eggs, yoghurt , bones, etc. I think this is a high quality, low cost feeding regime and my guys are thriving. I'm sure you've seen the barf wa site which has piles of places to buy patties - just ring around to find out prices first. Barf WA

Here's a copy of two posts from a previous thread this morning which explains what I do... it was in the context of an ACL repair but I hope you find the info helpful.

I also worked VERY hard on his weight which has made a world of difference to him. As poodle wrangler said, I cut his food down by half (including his low cal dry food) but for us it didn't work (and no I didn't cheat!). So after some advice from some knowledgeable DOLers I put him on a barf diet, initially heavy on the veggies, a little protein (all human grade) and cut out the carbs and dry food - all under vet supervision. It worked sensationally. It was a bit drastic but I had to be 'cruel to be kind' - he is such a foodie! And he's now very svelte with a waist! A lean mean westie machine!! laugh.gif laugh.gif

After he had lost his kgs, I then reintroduced his favourite foods as treats until I worked out how much (portion size) he could have without putting on weight. Hi diet now consists of half a barf pattie or 80-100gs of meat with veggies at night and a snack in the morning (chicken neck). He also gets bones (on those days he doesn't get his pattie or his meat) and carrots for treats regularly and 'naughty' treats occasionally only (he's a fiend around blue cheese!). He dropped 2.5 kilos (about 25% of his body weight!) and has been stable around the 8 kg mark for sometime. I think in my case the weight loss has helped him enormously and is the key to long-term successful management of overweight dogs with ruptured ACLs

I'm very careful to keep him on the lean side now (low side of his normal weight range) to keep the pressure off his joints (as a rescue dog who lived in a cage for a long time he has arthritis and poorly developed back leg musculature as well ) - so I'm very very careful with his weight now - and it seems to be working really well - he is happy, healthy and bounces around like a puppy - and the side benefit to all this is that he doesn't have the skin problems he had before - they have completely cleared up - and I think that is because of his diet and the fact he has NO artificial colourings, flavours or preservatives - I'm really careful about that.

And the second post which gives some more detail...

...so after lengthy discussions with the vet we decided to drop the carbs and dry food - he told me that even the low cal dry food has 'plenty' of calories in it anyway - and we thought probably too many for a small dog - and health-wise my boy hasn't missed it. So sometimes it might not be the amount you're feeding but it might be the type of food - or both! (I also wonder about whether or not the lack of moisture in dry food is actually good for them given that their natural diet is full of moisture... anyway but that's for another time). Yep I know what you mean about those big eyes begging for more - but I had to be cruel to be kind. I find the veggies (frozen mixed black and gold if I'm in a rush) or whatever is in season and cheap from the markets - carrots, zucchini, broccoli, pumpkin, peas I think are the main ones - two types usually per meal - about a cup full - fills them up without the calories while they're losing weight. I cut the veggies up and find it literally takes a minute and then soften them for 2-3 minutes in the microwave (he has dodgey teeth) - but I basically keep them as raw as possible - then serve with a pattie or a little meat. I find its worth the little extra effort and I genuinely believe that I've saved a small fortune in vet bills... I found it really helpful anyway to do the weight loss thing under vet supervision - even though it was as bad as fronting up to weight watchers laugh.gif rolleyes.gif - and if I'm passing the vet - they are always happy for me to dash in and put my guys on the scales... so I really do keep an eagle eye on their weight.

I had a similar problem with my mother with my old cat, who was staying with her - she and an elderly friend living next door were both feeding my cat and killing him with kindness. I read them both the riot act. The solution was that Mum bought the food, and our elderly friend gave him his 'morning tea' (no breakfast). :D He them came home to Mum for dinner . That way he dropped weight, everyone was happy and he wasn't overfed - and he's now an incredibly, demanding, healthy 15 year old.

So would it be possible to do something similar with your Mum? You organise the meals and she gives him one meal a day and some carrot or bean treats during the day and you feed him at night... or something similar? Maybe she organises a fish meal a week for him??

And I suggest you show her this thread!!! :D IMO, there is nothing worse than fat, lethargic, inactive dogs!!

Hope that helps,

Cheers,

Westiemum :p

[Liza]

Hi Liza,

I feed a modified BARF which was originally supervised by my vet... interestingly I don't feed organs and offal as my guys don't like it!! I find its relatively cheap - particularly when compared to the supermarket stuff (which I think looks absolutely revolting anyway and can't bring myself to feeding it to my guys!!). It probably isn't true barf but I've found this works beautifully for us. And when I'm preparing my guys veggies at night, friends think I'm making our dinner!! Basically I feed as raw as possible, a mixture of meat and veggies, and bones and am very strict about treats - mine mainly get raw carrot!!! (Which they love BTW!). I can also recommend the BARF patties for little dogs - like you I'm far too busy to make my own barf mix so I pay for the convenience of the patties - mine get half a pattie each each night so a roll (17.00) lasts two weeks by the time they get at least one fish meal a week (home brand mackeral or sardines). They are packed full of goodies and my guys love them and they are thriving on them. They also get eggs, yoghurt , bones, etc. I think this is a high quality, low cost feeding regime and my guys are thriving. I'm sure you've seen the barf wa site which has piles of places to buy patties - just ring around to find out prices first. Barf WA

Here's a copy of two posts from a previous thread this morning which explains what I do... it was in the context of an ACL repair but I hope you find the info helpful.

I also worked VERY hard on his weight which has made a world of difference to him. As poodle wrangler said, I cut his food down by half (including his low cal dry food) but for us it didn't work (and no I didn't cheat!). So after some advice from some knowledgeable DOLers I put him on a barf diet, initially heavy on the veggies, a little protein (all human grade) and cut out the carbs and dry food - all under vet supervision. It worked sensationally. It was a bit drastic but I had to be 'cruel to be kind' - he is such a foodie! And he's now very svelte with a waist! A lean mean westie machine!! laugh.gif laugh.gif

After he had lost his kgs, I then reintroduced his favourite foods as treats until I worked out how much (portion size) he could have without putting on weight. Hi diet now consists of half a barf pattie or 80-100gs of meat with veggies at night and a snack in the morning (chicken neck). He also gets bones (on those days he doesn't get his pattie or his meat) and carrots for treats regularly and 'naughty' treats occasionally only (he's a fiend around blue cheese!). He dropped 2.5 kilos (about 25% of his body weight!) and has been stable around the 8 kg mark for sometime. I think in my case the weight loss has helped him enormously and is the key to long-term successful management of overweight dogs with ruptured ACLs

I'm very careful to keep him on the lean side now (low side of his normal weight range) to keep the pressure off his joints (as a rescue dog who lived in a cage for a long time he has arthritis and poorly developed back leg musculature as well ) - so I'm very very careful with his weight now - and it seems to be working really well - he is happy, healthy and bounces around like a puppy - and the side benefit to all this is that he doesn't have the skin problems he had before - they have completely cleared up - and I think that is because of his diet and the fact he has NO artificial colourings, flavours or preservatives - I'm really careful about that.

And the second post which gives some more detail...

...so after lengthy discussions with the vet we decided to drop the carbs and dry food - he told me that even the low cal dry food has 'plenty' of calories in it anyway - and we thought probably too many for a small dog - and health-wise my boy hasn't missed it. So sometimes it might not be the amount you're feeding but it might be the type of food - or both! (I also wonder about whether or not the lack of moisture in dry food is actually good for them given that their natural diet is full of moisture... anyway but that's for another time). Yep I know what you mean about those big eyes begging for more - but I had to be cruel to be kind. I find the veggies (frozen mixed black and gold if I'm in a rush) or whatever is in season and cheap from the markets - carrots, zucchini, broccoli, pumpkin, peas I think are the main ones - two types usually per meal - about a cup full - fills them up without the calories while they're losing weight. I cut the veggies up and find it literally takes a minute and then soften them for 2-3 minutes in the microwave (he has dodgey teeth) - but I basically keep them as raw as possible - then serve with a pattie or a little meat. I find its worth the little extra effort and I genuinely believe that I've saved a small fortune in vet bills... I found it really helpful anyway to do the weight loss thing under vet supervision - even though it was as bad as fronting up to weight watchers laugh.gif rolleyes.gif - and if I'm passing the vet - they are always happy for me to dash in and put my guys on the scales... so I really do keep an eagle eye on their weight.

I had a similar problem with my mother with my old cat, who was staying with her - she and an elderly friend living next door were both feeding my cat and killing him with kindness. I read them both the riot act. The solution was that Mum bought the food, and our elderly friend gave him his 'morning tea' (no breakfast). He them came home to Mum for dinner . That way he dropped weight, everyone was happy and he wasn't overfed - and he's now an incredibly, demanding, healthy 15 year old.

So would it be possible to do something similar with your Mum? You organise the meals and she gives him one meal a day and some carrot or bean treats during the day and you feed him at night... or something similar? Maybe she organises a fish meal a week for him??

And I suggest you show her this thread!!! IMO, there is nothing worse than fat, lethargic, inactive dogs!!

Hope that helps,

Cheers,

Westiemum

Thank you for this! What's weirding me out a bit is that I can't figure out if our vet weighed Keeda in pounds or kilograms. I mean, the last time the scale showed about 20! but 20 WHAT? Seeing as a beagle is normally meant to weigh about 20 lbs, I'm leaning toward that? But why use that system when the rest of the country is using kgs? He said she was a BIT overweight at that time, but not by much...I wonder how large a 20kg dog would be (I'm still used to using lbs from my U.S. living days). I'll have to figure it out before measuring off her food!

[Poodle wrangler]

I find that a dry food + raw is easiest.

Raw stuff I feed includes: chicken necks/wings/ carcass and brisket bones.

Pet/ livestock suppliers are cheap.

I use a dry supermarket food- Purina One- is about $30 for 7kg. Agrees with my dogs.

My bigger dog can't eat just any dry food. The wrong one and he'll have huge and/or runny poos.

My smaller dog was putting on weight. To lose it, I had to drop his food intake by HALF . No, I'm not joking!

Plus extra exercise.

Consider switching to feeing once a day if it means your Mum is less inclined to overfeed.

Also, buy a smaller food bowl.

Have a nice, big water bowl for water only.

[Liza]

I find that a dry food + raw is easiest.

Raw stuff I feed includes: chicken necks/wings/ carcass and brisket bones.

Pet/ livestock suppliers are cheap.

I use a dry supermarket food- Purina One- is about $30 for 7kg. Agrees with my dogs.

My bigger dog can't eat just any dry food. The wrong one and he'll have huge and/or runny poos.

My smaller dog was putting on weight. To lose it, I had to drop his food intake by HALF . No, I'm not joking!

Plus extra exercise.

Consider switching to feeing once a day if it means your Mum is less inclined to overfeed.

Also, buy a smaller food bowl.

Have a nice, big water bowl for water only.

Thanks for your advice. My boyfriend and I actually just got back to my house - I've decided to take some people's suggestion here and try feeding Keeda BARF patties mixed with chicken wings and vegetables. We'll see how it goes, it depends, but I'm also open to feeding her dry food with the patties. My mom doesn't know yet, she's out at the moment. I told her before that I was considering raw food with vegetables, but I don't think she knew that I was being serious.

[bonny_beagle]

Liza I'm betting shes 20kg, not pounds, pick her up and you'll have your answer, 10kg you can hold up off the ground with one arm, 20kg is definitely a two arm job. It takes time to see progress with weight loss and exercise is just as important as the right amount of food. Try feeding once a day, she will get used to it in no time

[Liza]

Liza I'm betting shes 20kg, not pounds, pick her up and you'll have your answer, 10kg you can hold up off the ground with one arm, 20kg is definitely a two arm job. It takes time to see progress with weight loss and exercise is just as important as the right amount of food. Try feeding once a day, she will get used to it in no time

Thanks for the tip! My mom actually dug up vet papers and it turns out she weighed only about 12kg when we last went to the vet, which makes a lot more sense.

I'd love to feed her once a day, but I know that's one thing my mom would never go for

How does this sound to start off with:

1 chicken wing in the morning with chopped up and mashed carrot, maybe beans, other veggies, a bit of vegetable oil mixed in, and a raw egg with a shell.

1 barf patty at night (or maybe 1 and a half?) 2 patties are suggested on the pack, but it also says to reduce that amount if I plan to feed other things as well.

Question about eggs - would one feed a raw egg with a shell whole, or should I break the shell into fine pieces and let the egg pour over the rest of the veggies?

I also read that tomato is bad for them, but then saw photos of meals with bits of tomato in them. Are tomatoes unsafe to feed?

Edited April 24, 2008 by Liza

[Gayle.]

Don't add vegetable oil, it adds nothing to the diet. If you want to feed some oil, make it flaxseed oil which is excellent for the coat. Or replace the oil with some sardines......excellent source of Omega-3!

My guys eat raw eggs whole.....it's like a snack. I give them an egg each on the lawn, and they have fun breaking it open, licking out the inside then crunching up the shell. If they have eggs mixed in with their food, I mash the whole lot together.

[badboyz]

I feed my dogs (shar pei which are about 20kg) I raw bone in the morning (most commonly chicken wings but also frames/turkey neck or wing - usually something they can eat up fairly quickly so there are no arguments). At night they get about 2/3 cup of super premium dry food and about a cup of premaid mince meat/offal/fruit/vegies (I buy this from the company that makes the barf patties in my state - so basically the same, but cheaper and more in bulk). Sometimes they will get somethng different, like canned fish/natures gift canned food, an egg, especially if I forget to put the mince out or run out. This is very easy and quick to serve and they look fabulous. As I am busiest in the morning, that is when I just throw them a bone. It works out at about $10 a week per dog.

[Liza]

Thanks, guys. Badboyz, so your dogs get one wing or neck in the morning?

My mom has insisted on feeding Keeda FIVE chicken necks today. I didn't put up too much of a fuss because I'm hoping with the diet change I'll be able to get it through her head that she isn't calling the shots anymore. We're feeding one patty this afternoon and I'm encouraging her to use peas instead of treats (which, as you guys suggested, my dog loves!)

Is five chicken necks way too much? I mean they're tiny....if I keep feeding her 5 per day like my mom says plus the patty, will she gain even more weight? I'll also tell my mom to heavily cut down on the treats unless it's peas.

[badboyz]

Usually it is just one chicken wing. Of course they vary in size from scrawny to quite meaty. Same goes for chicken necks - some are quite small while others are much thicker. I vary who gets the bigger ones and figure it will all work out in the end. My chi pup gets 1 chicken neck for breakfast. I would think 4/5 necks would be okay, depending on the size. I treat breakfast as more of a light meal and dinner as their main meal, but if they get a chicken frame which is quite big, then I will cut down on their dinner. When I used to have beagles, who tend to put on weight easily, when I wanted to trim one down a touch I would add 1 wheatbix to about 2/3 of it's usual meal for a week or two. Makes them still feel full without extra calories and fat.

Edited April 25, 2008 by badboyz

[westiemum]

Yep its one chicken neck here too in the morning for 8-8.5 kg westies. Its essentially to clean their teeth and give them a morning snack until their main meal at night. I think 5 chicken necks is probably a couple too many - at a guess maybe 2 would be better until you get his weight under control.

And the other advantage of this sort of feeding regime is a vast reduction in smelly poo!! :D

Cheers,

Westiemum ;)

[Liza]

Ugh I am just about ready to quit TAFE, get a full time job, and move out of this house as soon as humanly possible.

My mom doesn't seem to understand that dogs don't NEED 2 meals a day - that I'm ALREADY adding the chicken wings/necks ON to the BARF patty amount that she's meant to have daily. Keeda didn't like her chicken wing today - when I'd rip up little pieces and feed her she'd be fine. But she hated actually breaking it apart and eating it herself so after half an hour of coaxing, feeding her little bits, holding it for her, etc., I decided that I've had enough and tossed the rest of the wing out (she ate about half of it).

My mom went crazy. Something along the lines of: "I'm not letting you starve the dog to death! I'll feed her when you're not looking!"

I tried to explain to her that the chicken wing is NOT meant to be another meal for her - her main meal is tonight. She'd hear none of it. ("Well the amounts on the box are WRONG. I know how much she SHOULD be getting." - exact quote)

She always says: "Well when you were little WE didn't starve you and even now you eat what you want."

I said: "Well then let's feed her chocolate - I ate a piece last night. Let's let her sit at the table, I'm allowed to sit at tables, so should she."

Anyway, I'm now looking on Seek for full time jobs.

Edited April 26, 2008 by Liza

[Staff'n'Toller]

If she's hungry she'll learn how to eat the wings, it will be the kindest thing you ever do for her- tell your mum it will save her 400-500 every couple of years in dentistry as she gets older.

My 20kg dog eats 2 barf patties and he is on the porky side so 1-1.5 patties should be fine for your dog, they are very bulky.

As GayleK says feed flax seed oil preferably cold pressed (you can buy the vets all natural one online) and she shouldn't need an egg in the morning, if you are buying the billinghurst patties they already contain whole egg.

2 meals a day is fine! We actually recommend it for dogs that need to lose weight.

Cheers,

Mel.

Edited April 26, 2008 by Staff'n'Toller

[Liza]

If she's hungry she'll learn how to eat the wings, it will be the kindest thing you ever do for her- tell your mum it will save her 400-500 every couple of years in dentistry as she gets older.

My 20kg dog eats 2 barf patties and he is on the porky side so 1-1.5 patties should be fine for your dog, they are very bulky.

As GayleK says feed flax seed oil preferably cold pressed (you can buy the vets all natural one online) and she shouldn't need an egg in the morning, if you are buying the billinghurst patties they already contain whole egg.

2 meals a day is fine! We actually recommend it for dogs that need to lose weight.

Cheers,

Mel.

As I found out, Keeda is only about 13kg, not 20 like I thought! We dug up the vet papers from last time we visited - she was already a bit overweight at the time of weighing, so we feed her 1 in the evening. I have no problem feeding her twice a day, but my mom insists on feeding her a substantial amount in the morning PLUS her recommended daily amount of the BARF patty.