whitka Posted April 8, 2008 Share Posted April 8, 2008 My dog has started running off on me. There's a paddock next to where I do agility training and any chance he gets he will run off into the paddock although there's nothing in it. Twice he's done it in an agility trial, the first time it seemed like he just wanted to and on Saturday he ran off to go play with the other dog. And tonight he took off to go play with some dogs. I'm getting really upset as he used to be so trust worthy off the lead and would always come back to me when I called him, now he just ignores me. I don't trust him anymore so how can I fix this? Please any suggestions will be great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAX Posted April 8, 2008 Share Posted April 8, 2008 I think you need to up the rewards for being with you. There must be a reason why he wants to go there, something that is more rewarding to him then doing as you ask. Control the reward, control the dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted April 8, 2008 Share Posted April 8, 2008 How old is he Whitka? How would you describe his personality generally. I've seen dogs do it because they're distracted, chasing animals, very stressed and downright disobedient. Some are basically giving their handlers the finger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitka Posted April 8, 2008 Author Share Posted April 8, 2008 How old is he Whitka? How would you describe his personality generally.I've seen dogs do it because they're distracted, chasing animals, very stressed and downright disobedient. Some are basically giving their handlers the finger. Toby is 4, he does get distracted by birds running dogs and the smell of a possum, and he is a domanent (sp?) dog, I have been trying to sort it out by trying to get more firm with him but he seems to be getting worse. At home he's very good and listens to me and is a real goof and loves to play Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted April 8, 2008 Share Posted April 8, 2008 (edited) PAX and PF both raise good points. I think my Dally is pretty challenging (he's only 16 months) but we are making good progress - mainly because I control the rewards (lots of clicker training with very high value food rewards and moving to jackpots for lovely work now) and also, rather than getting upset and stern, I use a non-reward marker. If Zig switches off when we are doing obedience (I train on my own) I say "Oh, well" very calmly and he is beginning to work out that he has lost the chance to earn a reward and tries to offer me a behaviour. Plus I try to make training fun! If he ever runs off and goes conveniently 'deaf' I just walk over to him calmly, put his lead on and his fun is over PLUS no food reward. When I let him off again, he remembers to keep an ear and eye out for me. It's much more pleasant for him if he returns when called, is rewarded, then released again. We go through this cycle every now and again in this great 'teenager' learning curve ;) All the best, Whitka Edited April 8, 2008 by The Spotted Devil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miamay Posted April 8, 2008 Share Posted April 8, 2008 I have a 5yo lab who sure gives me the finger when we are at the beach. At home she is fantastic not a problem but out Oh boy is she a bugger. I just walk the oposite way and eventually she comes which is fine if I want to walk but to just sit at the beach with her is a joke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miamay Posted April 8, 2008 Share Posted April 8, 2008 hope this comes through this is 10 mth old eli at the beach Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitka Posted April 8, 2008 Author Share Posted April 8, 2008 Thanks everyone im feeling better now although not sure what to make of this, took the little shit for a little walk across the road to the park because he was abit restless. Before I let him back in I tell him to sit, take his lead off and tell him to wait before I let him inside, picture this he's sitting but looks behind back at towards the park and before I have the chance to say anything the little shit is of across the road back to the park and while i'm having a heart attack he relises i'm not runnung after him and runs back to me sit's nicely and waits to be let in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted April 8, 2008 Share Posted April 8, 2008 Can I suggest you try some focus work with him? If he's looking you in the eye, he can't focus on anything else! It's something I use a lot with Zig as he is Mr Distraction - each obedience exercise begins and ends with focus. It really keeps his mind on the job, especially with stays as he doesn't get released and rewarded until he is looking right at me when I return to his side Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitka Posted April 8, 2008 Author Share Posted April 8, 2008 Spotted Devil that's good idea, I think i'm gonna swipe it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonymc Posted April 9, 2008 Share Posted April 9, 2008 Whitka,I would have a good look at my leadership.Be mindful that many people actually teach or force a dog to run away from them by surpressing a dogs drive.A dog feels whole when drive is flowing.But some dog owners surpress the dogs drive and the dog learns its not safe to express drive around the owner.Therefore when the dog gets into drive he feels he has to get away from the owner. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tatelina Posted April 10, 2008 Share Posted April 10, 2008 I've been wanting to make a thread on recall for ages!! I've got two 2ish year old girls who are usually very good at coming back when they hear me call but as soon as they are distracted they don't listen at all. Very irritating to be shouting 'Jedda. Jedda! Jeeeeedda. JEDDA! JEDDA!!' while she gleefully crash tackles into another unappreciative dog/person on the other side of the field that I didn't notice in time...and then casually when she feels like it (or when I start running away) she chases after me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitka Posted April 10, 2008 Author Share Posted April 10, 2008 Here's a little update. Had a very nice training session yesterday at the park across the road. I started of getting him to watch me and then we did some heeling which I was very pleased with, then I let him of the lead but stayed where I was and just sat down watching him. Everytime he came back I would click and gave him a treat, after doing that a few times I got up and just walked around and again everytime he came back to me I clicked and treat, he was then happy to stay with me which I was still clicking and treating. I then let him go back to running around and then I started running away from him while calling him to come which he responed to very fast, did that a couple of times and at that time there were some dogs around I decided to call it quits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted April 10, 2008 Share Posted April 10, 2008 (edited) How old is he Whitka? How would you describe his personality generally.I've seen dogs do it because they're distracted, chasing animals, very stressed and downright disobedient. Some are basically giving their handlers the finger. Toby is 4, he does get distracted by birds running dogs and the smell of a possum, and he is a domanent (sp?) dog, I have been trying to sort it out by trying to get more firm with him but he seems to be getting worse. At home he's very good and listens to me and is a real goof and loves to play With any dog, you have to tick the "what's in it for me" box to get a reliable recall. It's extremely hard to use aversives effectively for a recall because if you negatively reinforce any less than satisfactory return, the upshot is that you may not get a return at all. Why would you return to a person who gives you curry when you do? If you want to spot a dog that's been discplined for it in the obedience ring, look for a recall at about snail pace. If the dog comes back, REWARD. Discipline can wait for another time. For unreliable dogs, a long line (not a flexilead but something like a horse lunging line) is useful. You ask for the return and if the dog doesn't, then you reel him in. Don't call if you are not in position to get the dog to come back. I think its wise to have an emergecy or fast recall different to the formal obedience or everyday "come". I have trained my dogs to recall to a whistle and it's great becasue the whistle has far greater range and absolutely no emotion. Once they're inbound I use my voice to encourage them and ALWAYS reward if I can. Don't make the mistake of thinking that your dog has to stop and sit in front to get a good recall - what you want in this case is the check in for new messages. Calling the dog in and throwing the ball just past you as it comes can help. Running hard if the direction away from the dog can also be effective for some. Try calling them and then bolting away from them and see what happens. If they are really giving you the finger, go hunt them down. Don't use the cue over and over with them blowing you off. If they don't come to "come" use something new. My non-formal cue after the dog's name (when not using the whistle) is QUICK!!! The other thing I do is call a return when I don't need one, reward and send the dog out again. If the only time you ask for a recall is to leave the dog park or stop behaviour the dog finds rewarding, the dog doesn't have to be a rocket scientist to realise that "come" means the party is over. ETA: Whitka have you ever done restrained recalls? Edited April 10, 2008 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted April 10, 2008 Share Posted April 10, 2008 (edited) Tatelina: I've got two 2ish year old girls who are usually very good at coming back when they hear me call but as soon as they are distracted they don't listen at all. Very irritating to be shouting 'Jedda. Jedda! Jeeeeedda. JEDDA! JEDDA!!' At the risk of sounding schoolmarmish I do tend to remind handlers that their dog's name is not a cue. It's great if you've taught the dog to look at you when you say it's name but for many dogs names are just white noise. Work on your recall and say Jeddah... when the dog looks.. lure if you have to but get the dog to come. When the dog is coming add "come" or "quick" or whatever word you want and say it ONCE. Anything after that is just "pleading". So it's JEDDA... dog looks.. QUIIIIIIICK.. and verbally encourage them in... yay... good dog.. REWARD!!!!! Sometimes handlers forget that the dog actually coming towards you needs to be praised as much as it arriving. Don't forget that a visual cue eg. outstetched arms can help the dog when it's at distance. I'm a huuuge whistle fan though. Edited April 10, 2008 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitka Posted April 10, 2008 Author Share Posted April 10, 2008 What's a restrained recall? I have never heard of it before. Toby is very quick and I can't keep up with him, what I have started doing is in a firm voice calling Toby HERE and when he does come back I have been giving heaps of treats. I have also found if I run off the other way he quickly tries to catch up to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAX Posted April 10, 2008 Share Posted April 10, 2008 (edited) My version and what I know of a restrained recall is as follows. Have someone hold your dog, run away and call your dog and act excited, when your dog is bucking and straining to get to you, have the person let him/her go. You want to make this a very high value reward. So work out what floats your dogs boat and offer that as the reward. That could be for you to run more so your dog can chase you, scrumptious treat or game like tug, also distance can be an added reward by doing the recall the whole length of a football field or park. Edited April 10, 2008 by PAX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tatelina Posted April 11, 2008 Share Posted April 11, 2008 Tatelina:I've got two 2ish year old girls who are usually very good at coming back when they hear me call but as soon as they are distracted they don't listen at all. Very irritating to be shouting 'Jedda. Jedda! Jeeeeedda. JEDDA! JEDDA!!' At the risk of sounding schoolmarmish I do tend to remind handlers that their dog's name is not a cue. It's great if you've taught the dog to look at you when you say it's name but for many dogs names are just white noise. Work on your recall and say Jeddah... when the dog looks.. lure if you have to but get the dog to come. When the dog is coming add "come" or "quick" or whatever word you want and say it ONCE. Anything after that is just "pleading". So it's JEDDA... dog looks.. QUIIIIIIICK.. and verbally encourage them in... yay... good dog.. REWARD!!!!! Sometimes handlers forget that the dog actually coming towards you needs to be praised as much as it arriving. Don't forget that a visual cue eg. outstetched arms can help the dog when it's at distance. I'm a huuuge whistle fan though. No no you're giving good advice!! Thanks! Yeah that's an obvious point which I've forgotten... Jedda really doesn't mean much. And PAX thanks for explaining the restrained call...have never heard of that either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted April 11, 2008 Share Posted April 11, 2008 (edited) What's a restrained recall? I have never heard of it before. Toby is very quick and I can't keep up with him, what I have started doing is in a firm voice calling Toby HERE and when he does come back I have been giving heaps of treats. I have also found if I run off the other way he quickly tries to catch up to me. What happens if you try TOBY.. HERE.. in an excited voice rather than a firm one.. do you encourage him in with your voice (verbal praise) as he's coming in. Mix it up with the running away and not.. keep him on his toes. If he likes a ball, try throwing past you it in a continuation of the direction he's coming.. especially at the end of a restrained recall.. you are building the dog's motivation to get to you as soon as he can. Edited April 11, 2008 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitka Posted April 11, 2008 Author Share Posted April 11, 2008 What's a restrained recall? I have never heard of it before. Toby is very quick and I can't keep up with him, what I have started doing is in a firm voice calling Toby HERE and when he does come back I have been giving heaps of treats. I have also found if I run off the other way he quickly tries to catch up to me. What happens if you try TOBY.. HERE.. in an excited voice rather than a firm one.. do you encourage him in with your voice (verbal praise) as he's coming in. Mix it up with the running away and not.. keep him on his toes. If he likes a ball, try throwing past you it in a continuation of the direction he's coming.. especially at the end of a restrained recall.. you are building the dog's motivation to get to you as soon as he can. I get a mix reaction, sometimes calling him in a excited voice doesn't work so I have to change to a firm voice, but I always reward when he does come back Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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