Agility Contacts

[laffi]

I am interested in what people are doing, as well as:

why did pick the specific one?

what was/is your major problem with it?

have you ever had to retrain contacts/change criteria?

I am asking because of my dogs (who learns everything else really fast) is struggling with 2o/2o. It seems like it's simply not for her and I am considering switching her to 4 on the floor.

[DeltaCharlie]

You can only select one so I went with Delta (4 on the floor).

I personally like 2 o 2 o but it just wasn't working with Delta. Border collies naturally get down low and like to drop, it took forever to get her to do a nose touch on the target as she kept trying to lie down on it. We had to redo the whole nose touch training thing every time we stepped up to the next level of base work. Target on floor- she lay down on it, target at bottom of step- she went all the way to the bottom and lay down on it, end of contact- yep, you guessed it, she lay down on it.

It was at that point another trainer came over to me and advised training the 4 on the floor as it was basically what she was doing anyway. So that is what we are now doing, she is at the point where her mat is right at the end of the contact, Im going to start cutting it smaller now. She is only 16mnths so by the time she is old enough to compete it will hopefully be removed completely. The issue I have with 4 on the floor is that it isnt as definite as 2 o 2 o. The dog just has to lie down on the grass and to the dog the grass would look the same at the end of the contact or 2 metres away. At least with 2 o 2 o, the dog knows where its feet need to be.

I am sticking with the 2 on 2 off with Charlie though. He doesn't particularly like dropping and it is a bugger to get him to hold a drop stay lol. He hasn't had much agility training as he has done flyball, but I will be starting him again next month. I have done most of the base work for 2 o 2 o and he is at the "end of the stairs" stage. He picked it up straight away, probably the only thing that he has learnt quicker than Delta lol, he is usually pretty thick.

Cody used to just do a running contact. He was not particularly comfortable with the heights involved with contacts and not once was he brave enough to try to bail early, he used to run right to the end. I didn't really know much about contact training at that point as everyone at the club did running contacts (I think they were the same as me- didn't know any other way) which meant the new members did running contacts and it became a vicious cycle Last year a new trainer took over and actually started end behaviour training with beginners so they got into it right from the start. I would never do running contacts again. I need something that will actually stop the dog until I release it again. I have incredibly fast dogs and it is the only way for me to catch up to them and get back into a better position

[Reddii]

Hey there,

We do two on, two off, just because that's what was taught to do and the dogs seem to both cope with it OK. The one thing I don't like about it is that I can't 're-cue' it. I was watching one of the trainers the other night who has taught her dog to nose touch at the end of the contact and can get him to do it 10 or 12 times and reinforce the behaviour each time. Neither of my two were taught targetting like that so we are working on it at present and will slowly introduce it into our training to try and move to this style of contact.

It still seems to be basically 2o 2o, but just a little easier to understand.

Cheers.

Tony

BTW - the new thing with CK is working. Just have to get OH out of bed to come down to the park with the camera one morning. Other than that I might be able to show you Sunday night if you are coming.

[J...]

I started out using "point and pray" because no-one had really bothered with it at the first club I went to.

Started out at another club which was using 2o2o, then had a private session with someone who basically said running contacts is the only way to go. I don't believe you can teach a reliable running contact without having the actual equipment sitting in your backyard and I felt going back to 2o2o was a better way to go.

So we started back on 2o2o again, good thing is you can teach it at home with a plank of wood and progress through to propping it on a set of stairs. Handy to have for a quick dog because it means I can hold her if there is a change of direction or a tricky section of course where I'd like to be able to direct her more carefully rather than steer from behind.

[skip]

Can I ask a beginner question?

I'm still getting started with agility and don't have access to much help training wise. I found out about contacts at a training camp last year but was not really taught them before I started competing.

I called the trainer who started me off and he thought it was not necessary with my dogs. Mostly as they are only 4 and 10 kg so he thought it unlikely they would be not making the contacts.

They do BUT only if I keep them straight! If I was to change direction or move away at a incorrect time they could possibly jump off crooked.

So is this running contacts? I can tell them to wait if I think they are about to fly off the end and then I make sure they go straighter. Is it OK to just do this. Or should I be (trying) to teach contacts just to get experience with them.

[Kavik]

I am doing 2o2o. This is my first dog to teach contacts to, so we are both learning I am teaching 2o2o as someone suggested it, and it looked like a good one to try. We have yet to progress to proper height equipment, just using board in yard etc but have had a go on a small ramp at a club and he remembered so it looks pretty good so far.

[Sayreovi]

We do running contacts, though it is still a work in progress that like someone has said you need the equipment in your backyard too do it well, so it ends up being a 'please dont miss' kind of contact

[whatevah]

With Moses, I did two on two off, and also nose touch. Found with the nose touch that he started doing handstands at the end of the agility contact. With Tia have been doing 4 on the floor, I think quicker to teach because the dog knows exactly what to do. I just say drop. Two on two off is much more precise. Tia likes to drop.

[kelpiechick]

Can I ask a beginner question?

I'm still getting started with agility and don't have access to much help training wise. I found out about contacts at a training camp last year but was not really taught them before I started competing.

I called the trainer who started me off and he thought it was not necessary with my dogs. Mostly as they are only 4 and 10 kg so he thought it unlikely they would be not making the contacts.

They do BUT only if I keep them straight! If I was to change direction or move away at a incorrect time they could possibly jump off crooked.

So is this running contacts? I can tell them to wait if I think they are about to fly off the end and then I make sure they go straighter. Is it OK to just do this. Or should I be (trying) to teach contacts just to get experience with them.

A true running contact is just that - the dog RUNS in extended stride over the length of the d/w or AFrame - not trots, walks, etc. A dog with a true running contact will generally complete a d/w in 2 seconds or under. This takes a huge amount of training. The dog has to be taught to actually run the equipment first and then learns to hit a particular spot at the bottom, usually with the aid of a touch board or stride regulators- and many, many repetitions to create 'muscle memory'.

Many small dogs are ideal candidates for this type of contact due to the length of their stride, but they still need to be taught their 'job' first. Just letting them go over and off with a collected stride that slows them down compared to their normal running pace would be what I would call a moving contact rather than a running contact. Many dogs trialling have moving contacts which their handlers (incorrectly) describe as running contacts.

The method of contacts that you decide to use is entirely up to you-(there is no right or wrong)- and what you want for your dogs. A lot of people in classes are not interested in trialling or in trialling at Masters level and decide to teach what I would call a handler dependent contact. (eg: dogs contact performance relies on handler being close to dog to slow it down, point at spot, straighten it, etc.)

If they are happy with this then that is fine.

Other people have higher goals in regard to trialling so for them, this type of contact performance would not be fine and they would most likely be looking for an independent contact - the dog performs the equipment without any assistance from handler - in fact handler could probably be 5 metres or more away/ behind dog/in front of dog and it wouldn't make any difference to performance.

For safety's sake, it is important that you don't let your dog jump off the side of the equipment in the way you describe. (or to jump on from the side either) So if you decide to teach a handler dependent contact, you will need to take particular care with your body language to make sure the dog has a straight entry/exit. If you are teaching an independent contact you will be less likely to have this problem due to the dog having a 'job' at the end. You can also use tall witches hats on either side of d/w at the start/bottom to encourage dog not to leap off/on side - have also seen 'gates' built with PVC pipe and orange netting that do the same job.

Hope this answers your questions.

Try to get a picture inside your head of what you want your dog's ideal contact performance to look like and then work out how you will train this step by step.

I am training my youngest dog 2020 on dogwalk and running on A Frame.

If you want to see an awesome 2020 contact check out this. and follow the link to 'contact movie'. (ours don't quite look like this yet - LOL)

In regard to 2020 training - there seems to be a bit of confusion about what it actually is.

The nose touch is not something added to 2020 but is actually part of the behaviour.

There are several positions at the end that you can train for 2020- usually these are

1. back feet on, front feet off with dog nose touching between its front paws

2. back feet on/front feet off with dog standing upright in that position

3. back feet on/front feet off with dog in a drop or crouch - Elicia Calhoun teaches this method and shapes it with a (large) board that she teaches the dog to drop on first. Difference between this and 4 on floor is that board is placed on end of contact and dog is shaped into position where front paws are on the ground but rest of dog is on contact - not quite as ambiguous a position as 4 on floor. Plus she trains her dogs to slide into that position so it's really fast.

I like the nose touch method - as a previous poster pointed out you can recue this for multiple rewards at end when you are training plus it's a very 'black and white' position for the dog. But you do need to teach your dog to rock their weight back first or yes, you will get 'handstands.'

Edited April 9, 2008 by kelpiechick

[bordacollies4me]

i train 2o2o contacts Why??? because it gives the dog a job to do is much safer if taught properly as the dog learns to rock its weight backwards whilst driving into position... if dog is handstanding then i would reccommend doing a lot of rear end awarness work to help dogs deal with their backends... after attending some LOH seminars on the weekends it was very apparent that we all skip over the foundation stuff required to have a great 2o2o with lots of understanding for the dog... with my new puppy and with my older dogs over the next few months we will be concentrating on the foundation excersises and contact games i play to get solid contact performance from my dogs...

[skip]

God! Thanks for that great reply Kelpiechick.

I was actually halfway thru writing this and got side tracked on the link you added. I would like my dog to contact like those dogs please. So I better get working!

I have only been to a session on contacts at a ADAA training weekend last year. So I will be doing a lot of research. I hope to be at a comp in May in Sydney and might try to get some advice there. The trainer who introduced me might have a good idea what suits me + dogs. Hope to visit him soon as the dogs need a bit of practice on his walk etc before hand.

My dogs work so different. My kelpie x would be OK to teach 2o2o and he is a great dog to learn with. My other dog (chi x foxie) started agility like a mad thing but now I am not so sure. If she doesn't want to do it it's OK.

Hope to get some training here locally but have none at the moment. So I appreciate help from all sorces.

And thought it was interesting you do running contacts with the A frame. Why this choice? The dogs are less likely to miss the contact on the A frame?

And is the release word for the contact the same one you would use for the start or the table pause?

Too many questions I'd better get some research going.

Thanks.

[kelpiechick]

I was actually halfway thru writing this and got side tracked on the link you added. I would like my dog to contact like those dogs please. So I better get working!

Yeah, me too Would just about sell my soul for those contacts !

And thought it was interesting you do running contacts with the A frame. Why this choice? The dogs are less likely to miss the contact on the A frame?

And is the release word for the contact the same one you would use for the start or the table pause?

Release word question first. Yes, I use the same word at all times. (OK)

The running contact on the A Frame has been (and continues to be) a bit of an experiment.

Apparently it is 'flavour of the month' in the US to do 2020 on d/w and running on AFrame but that was not the reason I chose it . (although I did have some help from a US trainer who stayed with me when she was over to do a seminar)

Began by teaching my younger dog to run lowered A Frame first in preparation to then adding 2020. (With the other dog I backchained the end first and never really ended up with a fast contact because he never learned to run it. Therefore, train the running part first - then the 'stopping'.)

Had a stride regulator at the top to teach him to jump over top and hoop at bottom to teach him to lower his head, then I videoed it. He is a really tall kelpie (will be jumping 600) so I never thought that a running contact would be an option for him but surprisingly he seemed to hit the identical spots every single time- so I added a touch board at the bottom (where he was hitting) and decided to raise the A Frame slowly and see what happened.

We are almost up to full height now and he continues to hit same spot every time. Have removed the stride regulator and touch board and have removed the gate intermittently and it doesn't seem to make any difference so for the time being I am going with it. I figure I can always change to 2020 if I need to later as he has a good performance of this on the d/w.

Plus I can still run fast enough to be in position to handle the next obstacle after AFrame with a running but I doubt that I could do this with a running d/w.

Good luck with whatever method you decide to choose. Training contacts is fun and it's such a buzz when they finally start to

'get it.'