Advice For A Dog With Special Habits (dog From The Lost Dogs Home)

[tothemax]

Hi everyone

Its been great reading all of your posts, but I would like to post my own because it seems a lot of questions come from people who have had their animal since they were a puppy. We got our West Highland Terrier from the Lost Dogs Home (Melbourne) 3 weeks ago. He is a (est) 1 year old boy who has only just beed desexed (4 weeks ago). One of the questions I would love to have answered is 'Is this behaviour due to the hormonal change, or will it change and settle him with his hormones changing?'

We're going to Planet K9 for training, and we've just had our first one on one with Nicole who was great. Sadly our last class got cancelled as it was 40 degrees and unsafe for dogs, and today is a public holiday.

Im going to list our issues in dot points so people can respond to them individually if they wish.

1. While at the dog park (we've been told by LDH he needs socialisation) he will try and pee on the owners of dogs. I yell and he will stop but its usually that second too late. Im now warning people when I talk to them, and I know he might sneek in and get one out before I have time to remove him. While at my parents over Easter he's also pee'd in their house which he doesn't do at home (well, not unless he's been left inside too long) and they have a cat. It seems he's trying to mark his territory/establish dominance. Do you all think this is something to do with his current hormones, do you think it will chill out? Do you think there is anything I can be proactive and do - apart from telling him off?

2. Walking on a loose lead - we have a flippy lead which we're going to replace with a fixed lead on Nicoles advice. We've been told to pull him backwards when he pull forward and praise him when the lead is loose. The problem is he will pull ahead, but not so much that it engages on your muscle to control him - but just enough that it is a slight pull. This does get tiring after a while - and im concerned that he just doesn't 'get' being pulled backwards. He just goes back to what he was doing. Is it just persistence? We've been doing this consistently for two weeks and there has been an improvement. Am I expecting too much too soon? He will sit and drop most of the time and he picked that up really quickly.

3. Barking at other dogs when he doesn't get to say hello. He is getting better at this, as when we dont want him to say hello and if he does bark we take him away. After this he seems to become like a child who has had too much red cordial. You just can't get him to pay attention or respond?

Any advice would be fab. He is a really lovely sweet natured animal. I'd just like to have him as a part of my life (and my partners) that we can take him to the grandparents/friends places/ parks and not worry about naughty behaviour. I know there is going to be a little hard work involved - I think I just need some reassurance and guidance.

If you'd like to see our gorgeous little boy there is a picture of him on pg 19 of the Westie thread.

Thankyou!

TotheMAX (Max is the Westie, btw)

[Erny]

I think all the issues you raise in your post have a basis in "leadership" or, more particularly, your new dog not recognising this in you or for that matter, anyone else. It is also possible that this dog (who might have a history of thinking himself 'leader') is trying to re-establish his perceived position in his new environment and amongst the presently unfamiliar people he is getting the opportunity to meet. This could be in part to do with what you are doing in your day to day interactions with your dog and/or in part to do with his history with his previous owners (eg. learnt behaviour). I trust you'll be back at Planet K9 for training and learning very shortly. Do they have people whom you are able to contact in between times? Do they have people who are able to come out to see you and your dog in its own habitat/environment?

Refer to and follow the TOT program. It's pinned to the top of the "Training Forum" index page.

Follow the NILIF program as well. This program is about your dog doing something before before he receives ANYTHING. And this includes pats; treats; meals; walks; play. In fact, anything the dog likes to do. There are more things you can do, but this depends on what your general interactions are and also on what guidelines you already apply to your dog and its interactions with you in the home environment on a day to day basis, as well as when you are out. What is recommended also depends on your relationship with this dog (as your dog perceives it) as some strategies can give rise to a challenge in certain dogs and circumstances, which is why there is reluctance by trainer/behaviourists to give advice to these over the internet without seeing or knowing your dog and the relationship you both share. Regular/frequent training dotted in amongst your regular walks is also excellent.

I'd be keeping your dog on lead whilst out so that you are in a position to control and stop him from urinating on people. You can use a long-line if you wish to give him a bit more freedom than what he'd receive if on a standard length lead.

Edited March 24, 2008 by Erny

[tothemax]

Great reply, thanks Erny. My partner wants to go back to Nicole and see what she thinks about the TOT before we implement it, just so we dont confuse. If I get the tick of approval im going to follow it!

In answer to your questions: Nicole is really lovely, she's very welcoming and I have called her about a couple of things. I just dont want to 'bug' her all the time. No I dont believe they have people who come out and see him at home - not in the 6 week course we've signed up with. In regards to keeping him on the lead, bearing in mind he needs to be socialised - other dogs get tangled in his long flippy lead at the park, and thats why I let him off (plus, he runs around and wears himself out). I just dont know if its a good idea getting much bigger dogs tangled?

Does anyone know if his hormone change will make him less territorial in 3 months?

[Kelpie-i]

Hi tothemax,

Ain't nothing wrong with the TOT and NILIF programs, both are excellent for dealing with mild leadership issues as Erny has pointed out, and the programs will not alter or change your dog's personality or inflict any harm to him in anyway.

Does anyone know if his hormone change will make him less territorial in 3 months?

No, hormones will not change the way a dog views his territory or his status. You will need to work at this with a good obedience and leadership program.

Not too sure if a 6 week course will sort everything out for you though...depends on what you are learning during that time.

[skip]

Hi Tothemax,

I can't offer training advice like the experts who have already answered your post. But I'd like to say its great that you are making the effort to train your dog. And it has only been 3 weeks. Relax as you have all the time it takes. Soon I'm sure with training you won't know your dog.

I had never owned my OWN dog before and got 2 slightly bent dogs age 8months and 18 months.

But I relate to your list.

1. My male would not dare wee on people until one day at the dogpark he ( I think) was trying to mark over a poodles scent and piddled on my quite proper neighbours feet in an effort to do so. She had the 3 poodles.

And he never cocks his leg at home but at my aunts where I stay frequently he marked a lot as she has 2 dogs. I did say there is no need to let him inside at her place but a piddle on the back of the lounge re inforced that!

2. On lead he would never pull as originally he thought I was going to bash him at any moment. I walked him into town once but a man looked at him to comment on his looks and he went ballistic. Barking and trying to get away which of course made everybody look. And another trick was barking madly at a object like an outside setting in somebodys front yard. And no way was he going past it. Oh, and also manikins in the store front window are monsters even if you are in a car.

Anyway like you I got some professional help and went to training. It takes a while and some things like my males acceptance of people without fear takes a while. But it is all worth it for happy dogs in the end. I'm sure your little guy will be a gem.

Amazed you found a westie as a rescue. They are fairly uncommon I thought but very cute.

[tothemax]

Hi Tothemax,

I can't offer training advice like the experts who have already answered your post. But I'd like to say its great that you are making the effort to train your dog. And it has only been 3 weeks. Relax as you have all the time it takes. Soon I'm sure with training you won't know your dog.

I had never owned my OWN dog before and got 2 slightly bent dogs age 8months and 18 months.

But I relate to your list.

1. My male would not dare wee on people until one day at the dogpark he ( I think) was trying to mark over a poodles scent and piddled on my quite proper neighbours feet in an effort to do so. She had the 3 poodles.

And he never cocks his leg at home but at my aunts where I stay frequently he marked a lot as she has 2 dogs. I did say there is no need to let him inside at her place but a piddle on the back of the lounge re inforced that!

2. On lead he would never pull as originally he thought I was going to bash him at any moment. I walked him into town once but a man looked at him to comment on his looks and he went ballistic. Barking and trying to get away which of course made everybody look. And another trick was barking madly at a object like an outside setting in somebodys front yard. And no way was he going past it. Oh, and also manikins in the store front window are monsters even if you are in a car.

Anyway like you I got some professional help and went to training. It takes a while and some things like my males acceptance of people without fear takes a while. But it is all worth it for happy dogs in the end. I'm sure your little guy will be a gem.

Amazed you found a westie as a rescue. They are fairly uncommon I thought but very cute.

Hi Skip

Thanks for your reply. I just had an obedience class last night. He pee'd on both my partner and I - which he has never done before. He did it right in front of the trainer. I was mortified - but glad that she saw his behaviour.

Nicole (planetK9) said we need to stop taking him to the dog park. He needs to learn to calm down - he was insane last night and wouldn't stop barking at other dogs he wasn't allowed to say hello to. They tried to work him upto saying hello to other dogs without going nuts - but they just couldn't get him there. They suggested we'd need to work one on one with them some more just to get him to calm down.

We're to practice loose lead walking in our street until he gets it, then we can take him further bit -by-bit. We need to make him work for any of our attenion. We need to teach him how to heal. Also sitting in a park and just getting him to try and be calm is going to be a part of the training.

He is such a lovely dog, I just wish he didn't have some of these behaviours. Im scared that he'll always be a 'problem dog' that tries to wee on my friends... I dont mind putting in the hard work. Im just a little concerned. I can't believe a dog that is so sweet and loving can at times display such bad behaviour - but of course that is because he doesn't think its bad, he just thinks its they way he should behave as he's never been shown otherwise.

However, one really great thing is that he will allow children to pat him - and he remains calm and still. It makes me think he came from somewhere with kids. Not all is bad!

Onwards and upwards though.

Ally

[Cosmolo]

How did the trainers tell you to respond when you're dog urinates on someone? What techniques are they using to try to get him closer to the other dogs? It does sound like you would benefit from one on one- although it depends on how they are going to set up these situations that you are having problems in. Will the trainer be able to set up a controlled situation with other dogs?

[Kelpie-i]

I'm a little surprised that they even attempted to try and have him greet the other dogs when he was displaying the erratic behaviour. That sort of behaviour should sound alarms bells that he may require some desensitisation work for suspected fear aggression as well as addressing the obvious leadership issues.

Like Cosmolo, I'm curious to learn what sort of one on one they will do with you. Are you able to keep us informed?

[tothemax]

I'm a little surprised that they even attempted to try and have him greet the other dogs when he was displaying the erratic behaviour. That sort of behaviour should sound alarms bells that he may require some desensitisation work for suspected fear aggression as well as addressing the obvious leadership issues.

Like Cosmolo, I'm curious to learn what sort of one on one they will do with you. Are you able to keep us informed?

I sent you a big reply to your PM, Kelpie-i. Thankyou for messaging me. Im so glad the community is so helpful

When he pee's on people im to remove him away, and I think tell him off? (although they didn't say that, so im not sure. Thats what I did in front of her?)

We were there for an hour an a half, and I think they were hoping that he would eventually respond to the training and not get distracted by the dogs.

I really dont want to unfairly represent Nicole - she's been really great, and helpful.

[Cosmolo]

An hour and a half is too long and your dogs concentration is likely to get worse over this period of time rather than better. A dog will also not stop doing something if he is either enjoying it, or feels he needs to do it to keep himself safe. Discuss this with your trainer and just ask how they will set up the situations necesary in your one on one work : )

Edited April 1, 2008 by Cosmolo

[tothemax]

Cosmolo - what would you do about the pee'ing situation?

[Cosmolo]

Difficult to say without seeing the dog but likely some kind of correction at the moment his postures suggest he is going to do so.

[tothemax]

I'e been trying to catch him just before he does it.

I can tell when he's sniffing and about to cock his leg.

Honestly, he's a quick little bugger!

Here is my reply to a PM which may also answer some questions about what has been happening at dog training. I dont think I am clear enough.

My trainer thinks that he does need to learn that my partner and I are the ones in control, and that he needs to just relax and wait for our instructions. She thinks he has been taught 'rude' behaviour through lack of training, or bad training.

As for pee'ing on us, and others she thinks it might be a. not knowing who the leader is b. the recent hormonal change (and suggested that if training doesn't rectify this, it might be worth seeking hormonal control through the vet - but that often is only with dogs who do things like air hump) and there was a c, but I can't remember it.

We talked for so long last night, I can't remember half of what was said. They suggested I read an article called ' I just want to say hello' which will advise me the kinds of behaviours dogs exhibit when they greet one another. They tell me although I think my dogs greeting is fine, him bounding upto other dogs is seen as rude. I did some googling last night for this, but I couldn't remember the authors name. Im going to try again now.

So we were told to:

walk him in our driveway/street and concentrate on getting him to not pull on the lead

anytime we give him attention to make him work for it.

make it easy for him to do the right thing, hard to do the bad thing

walk him away from situations where he barks. We choose who he says hello to, and if he barks he doesn't get to say hello

work on making him heal. Reward him each time he heals and makes eye contact

She has also invited us to go to the training sessions and work outside the group where she can keep an eye on us, and we can try and train him with distractions.

[Cosmolo]

If the behaviour is fear based (and i have no idea if it is- but maybe ask your trainer) walking him away when he barks will actually serve to reinforce the barking rather than disuade him from doing it. What training equipment are you using if any?

[Kelpie-i]

I'e been trying to catch him just before he does it

It's not so much stopping or catching him from weeing on you...which is a symptom of the problem, it's about stopping the cause or root of the problem which is causing the symptom to occur....make sense??

If the behaviour is fear based (and i have no idea if it is- but maybe ask your trainer) walking him away when he barks will actually serve to reinforce the barking rather than disuade him from doing it. What training equipment are you using if any?

This would depend on the type of desensitisation technique being used.

[Rusky]

dogs don't notmally pee on each other or people they mark the spot the last dog peed...is he doing that?

I would take your dog to a vet first to make sure he doesn't have a urinary tract problem, then listen to your trainer, complete the course and then if you are unhappy that the course has not helped then ask here for help otherwise you will get too many conflicting ideas and methods. Stick with what your trainer is telling you assuming she knows whats what and knows how to train dogs...anyone can be a dog trainer, or rather say they are however having read the stuff you have posted it all seems to be ok but I wonder if you may not have understood all that is being told to you...

I have never heard of planetK9 some amazing names for dog training these days I don't live in your state obviously.

Does she teach a no reward marker? just interested is all

oh BTW when he does pee in the right place wait till he has finished and then praise him. I call it last drop praise...if you praise during a pee a dog which is anxious may stop half way through because the link between praise and acceptable desired behaviour has not yet clicked with your dog.

[skip]

Hi tothemax

Sounds like you are really making the effort! I agree with Rusky that for now go with your trainer. They are the only one to see you and your dog. Although you might take advantage of some experienced people here and run their ideasquestions past your trainer? You can only learn more.

And please don't get too discouraged. The things you describe are not that bad. You could feel at training like he is so bad but if I was at dog school and I saw I dog like yours after "Isn't he cute" (providing he wasn't anointing me!) I'd be thinking how good it was you were trying to improve his behaviour and ultimately his lifestyle.

Dwell on the little things like maybe a bit of improvement with focus/eye contact when you are alone.

And as to my little monster I was walking him today and out of nowhere he took off sideways? He thought a green coiled hose wheel was a monster! Now what is that!!!

Happy training.

[jaybeece]

We talked for so long last night, I can't remember half of what was said. They suggested I read an article called ' I just want to say hello' which will advise me the kinds of behaviours dogs exhibit when they greet one another. They tell me although I think my dogs greeting is fine, him bounding upto other dogs is seen as rude. I did some googling last night for this, but I couldn't remember the authors name. Im going to try again now.

My spidey sense is telling me this is possibly it:

http://www.flyingdogpress.com/sayhi.html

The other articles on FDP are really great too, well worth a read.

[tothemax]

Oh you all are quite simply superstars.

Thankyou for finding the article for me - I love it when someone does half of my homework for me. Im almost done reading it. Im just realising how different the psychology of dogs is, from humans. I know that is quite obvious, but I feel I apply to much of 'human logic' to these situations. I really need to educate myself.

A though dawned on me today - i've taken on a rescue dog, and its no suprise that im having to educate him. Why would I have expected anything less?

Skip - your post made me laugh - and thankyou for your kind words. Instead of worrying that people @ dog school will be wondering why I let me animal get so out of control - maybe they will just think that a. its a good thing something is being done about it now and b. maybe I didn't have him from pup.

On another note, we're working hard on loose lead walking - and healing, sitting and a little bit of staying. There is improvment.

[Rusky]

We talked for so long last night, I can't remember half of what was said. They suggested I read an article called ' I just want to say hello' which will advise me the kinds of behaviours dogs exhibit when they greet one another. They tell me although I think my dogs greeting is fine, him bounding upto other dogs is seen as rude. I did some googling last night for this, but I couldn't remember the authors name. Im going to try again now.

My spidey sense is telling me this is possibly it:

http://www.flyingdogpress.com/sayhi.html

The other articles on FDP are really great too, well worth a read.

brilliant article