Homeopathic Vaccines

[monsterpup]

Im a research scientist, I have a PhD in medicine from Melbourne University. In fact, I did my PhD in a bone biology/breast cancer lab.

You may as well inject distilled water, and hope that it clears up on its own.

Injecting a sick dog (or person) with a solution so dilute that the drug is no longer detectable is more dangerous, if you ask me. And irresponsible.

Just wanted to clear this up. Homeopathic nosodes aren't injected. They are an oral preparation.

I'm not the only one who doesn't believe in it - pretty much the whole respected scientific and medical industry doesn't believe in it! There isn't any proof!

You're welcome to your opinion about homeopathics etc. I'm not trying to change your mind I'm still on the fence myself.

However, I don't know if you class veterinarians as not respected, or part of the scientific and medical industry, but there are many vets who use homeopathics. It is becoming increasingly accepted even in Australia. And there are a number of professional bodies (some listed in blue below)with conventionally qualified members who do use homeopathics as part of their system of treatment.

Here is what a vet (with a Phd ) has to say about nosodes:

"The word comes from the Greek nosos, "disease", and eidos, "from". This is because nosodes are prepared from diseased tissue or the product of disease. In other words they are made from natural secretions that the body produces to help eliminate infective agents. Nosodes can be used to help protect against the same diseases that vaccines are conventionally used for. This includes Parvovirus, Distemper, Hepatitis, and Kennel Cough in dogs as well as Feline Enteritis and Cat Flu in cats."

From Dr Douglas Wilson, BVM&S, PhD VetMFHom MRCVSc CertIAVH.

"Dr Wilson is a veterinarian with over 25 years of experience. He has worked in the USA, UK, Europe, Australia and New Zealand.

He recognizes that there are limitations to conventional veterinary treatment and now uses a holistic approach to animal health care.

Dr Wilson is experienced in treating dogs and cats, horses, farm animals and other animals.

He is a member of the American Holistic Veterinary Medical Association (AHVMA)

The British Association of Homeopathic Veterinary Surgeons (BAHVS)

The International Association for Veterinary Homeopathy (IAVH)

and is President of the Australian Holistic Veterinarians (AHV):"

Titre testing - I'm still a bit wary as you dont know when your dog's immunity falls below safe levels and when your dog is at risk.

Titre tests do show when your dog's immunity falls below safe levels, and when your dog is at risk. That's what they're meant to do. They give you a picture of your dog's immunity so you don't over-vaccinate, but they don't replace vaccination. They aren't anything to do with homeopathics at all.

[Ahona]

Thanks for that Odette, I certainly don't think that all natural remedies are to be trusted and there are a large number of quacks out there!!

The good homeopaths I have been to, have all been in India, so I have no idea what homeopathy is like in Aus and probably shouldn't be commenting about it

[Odette]

Im a research scientist, I have a PhD in medicine from Melbourne University. In fact, I did my PhD in a bone biology/breast cancer lab.

You may as well inject distilled water, and hope that it clears up on its own.

Injecting a sick dog (or person) with a solution so dilute that the drug is no longer detectable is more dangerous, if you ask me. And irresponsible.

Just wanted to clear this up. Homeopathic nosodes aren't injected. They are an oral preparation.

I'm not the only one who doesn't believe in it - pretty much the whole respected scientific and medical industry doesn't believe in it! There isn't any proof!

You're welcome to your opinion about homeopathics etc. I'm not trying to change your mind I'm still on the fence myself.

However, I don't know if you class veterinarians as not respected, or part of the scientific and medical industry, but there are many vets who use homeopathics. It is becoming increasingly accepted even in Australia. And there are a number of professional bodies (some listed in blue below)with conventionally qualified members who do use homeopathics as part of their system of treatment.

Here is what a vet (with a Phd ) has to say about nosodes:

"The word comes from the Greek nosos, "disease", and eidos, "from". This is because nosodes are prepared from diseased tissue or the product of disease. In other words they are made from natural secretions that the body produces to help eliminate infective agents. Nosodes can be used to help protect against the same diseases that vaccines are conventionally used for. This includes Parvovirus, Distemper, Hepatitis, and Kennel Cough in dogs as well as Feline Enteritis and Cat Flu in cats."

From Dr Douglas Wilson, BVM&S, PhD VetMFHom MRCVSc CertIAVH.

"Dr Wilson is a veterinarian with over 25 years of experience. He has worked in the USA, UK, Europe, Australia and New Zealand.

He recognizes that there are limitations to conventional veterinary treatment and now uses a holistic approach to animal health care.

Dr Wilson is experienced in treating dogs and cats, horses, farm animals and other animals.

He is a member of the American Holistic Veterinary Medical Association (AHVMA)

The British Association of Homeopathic Veterinary Surgeons (BAHVS)

The International Association for Veterinary Homeopathy (IAVH)

and is President of the Australian Holistic Veterinarians (AHV):"

Titre testing - I'm still a bit wary as you dont know when your dog's immunity falls below safe levels and when your dog is at risk.

Titre tests do show when your dog's immunity falls below safe levels, and when your dog is at risk. That's what they're meant to do. They give you a picture of your dog's immunity so you don't over-vaccinate, but they don't replace vaccination. They aren't anything to do with homeopathics at all.

It sounds to me like Dr Wilson has a vested interest in promoting homeopathy, given that he is a member of a number of groups, and President of the Australian Holistic Veterinarians I don't know about what form a "homeopathic vaccine" comes, injected or oral, it really doesn't matter - I don't believe that they work. i cannot see how an animal can successfully mount an immune response against an antigen in a solution so dilute that the antigen is no longer detectable in the solution. That's just common sense. And I'm sure that many veterinarians ARE using homeopathies, they simply don't have to undergo the same scrutiny that human medicine does - really opens up the doors for those peddling homeopathy, doesn't it?

If I was in the business, I know where I'd be trying to sell my goods! And that's what you need to remember - it's a business.

There are plenty of doctors and therapists with the same qualifications in human medicine that also promote homeopathy for the treatment of human disease - it doesn't mean that they are as effective, or have undergone the same level of scrutiny in regards to safety and efficacy. Plenty of people have their heart in the right place, sure, but they go against the fundamental principles of research and proper scientific investigation when they promote a treatment or drug that does not have any real proof behind its method or principle! Hoping that something works doesn't mean that 1) it works or 2) that it's safe. You also need more than a handful of cases to prove efficacy too, and large scale studies are simply not done or reported, because the methodology is often so flawed that they can't publish in peer-reviewed journals!

I wouldn't risk my animals health, to be quite honest.

[Odette]

I'm interested in the efficacy of nosodes to be honest. I wonder if there is any published data illustrating efficacy at all! I'm not seeing much in an internet search, in fact, Im seeing quite the opposite.

I'm at work, so Ill be brief, but here is a statement from the British Veterinary Association:

"The BSAVA does not endorse the use of nosode vaccines for companion animals and

believes that there is no evidence base to support their efficacy. The BSAVA particularly

advises against the use of nosodes in a legal context (e.g. Local Authority inspection of

kennelled animals). The BSAVA supports the use of the wide range of high quality, safe

and efficacious licensed veterinary vaccines. The BSAVA believes that all animals

should receive the benefit of solid protective immunity from life-threatening infectious

diseases that is conferred by vaccination using licensed veterinary products. The BSAVA

endorses the concept that tailored vaccine programmes should be applied to as many

animals as possible within a population to maintain the level of protective immunity within

that population."

[Miranda]

LOL Odette this must be the first time we've ever agreed on something I must say that I am also highly sceptical of homeopathy, iridology and all the other pseudosciences. I would never risk a dog's life by attempting to protect it against life threatening diseases using nosodes.

I am certainly not against all forms of natural medicine and some would say I'm a weirdo because I don't eat meat, but I would never use homeopathy.

[Odette]

LOL Odette this must be the first time we've ever agreed on something I must say that I am also highly sceptical of homeopathy, iridology and all the other pseudosciences. I would never risk a dog's life by attempting to protect it against life threatening diseases using nosodes.

I am certainly not against all forms of natural medicine and some would say I'm a weirdo because I don't eat meat, but I would never use homeopathy.

LOL I'm a vegetarian too, seems we aren't entirely all that dissimilar.. I also don't think we disagree on everything, but things tend to get a little bit skewed on these boards..... All part of the fun i guess!

[Miranda]

LOL Odette this must be the first time we've ever agreed on something I must say that I am also highly sceptical of homeopathy, iridology and all the other pseudosciences. I would never risk a dog's life by attempting to protect it against life threatening diseases using nosodes.

I am certainly not against all forms of natural medicine and some would say I'm a weirdo because I don't eat meat, but I would never use homeopathy.

LOL I'm a vegetarian too, seems we aren't entirely all that dissimilar.. I also don't think we disagree on everything, but things tend to get a little bit skewed on these boards..... All part of the fun i guess!

Yes it's funny, but I've met a number of DOLers in the flesh and have never come across anyone I disliked, I've even met a DOLer that I had heaps of disagreements with on here, but in real life we got on perfectly well. As you say things can get a little bit skewed

Sorry guys for going OT, I'll be off now

Edited March 14, 2008 by Miranda

[monsterpup]

It sounds to me like Dr Wilson has a vested interest in promoting homeopathy, given that he is a member of a number of groups, and President of the Australian Holistic Veterinarians I don't know about what form a "homeopathic vaccine" comes, injected or oral, it really doesn't matter - I don't believe that they work. i cannot see how an animal can successfully mount an immune response against an antigen in a solution so dilute that the antigen is no longer detectable in the solution. That's just common sense. And I'm sure that many veterinarians ARE using homeopathies, they simply don't have to undergo the same scrutiny that human medicine does - really opens up the doors for those peddling homeopathy, doesn't it?

If I was in the business, I know where I'd be trying to sell my goods! And that's what you need to remember - it's a business.

There are plenty of doctors and therapists with the same qualifications in human medicine that also promote homeopathy for the treatment of human disease - it doesn't mean that they are as effective, or have undergone the same level of scrutiny in regards to safety and efficacy. Plenty of people have their heart in the right place, sure, but they go against the fundamental principles of research and proper scientific investigation when they promote a treatment or drug that does not have any real proof behind its method or principle! Hoping that something works doesn't mean that 1) it works or 2) that it's safe. You also need more than a handful of cases to prove efficacy too, and large scale studies are simply not done or reported, because the methodology is often so flawed that they can't publish in peer-reviewed journals!

I wouldn't risk my animals health, to be quite honest.

Thing is - conventional medicine is also a big business. Some would say the biggest. We probably need to remember that, too. Personally, I have no problem being sceptical about anything, or anyone.

Nobody here has asked anyone to risk their animals' health.

Because she has a dog which has had a vaccine reaction, the OP was simply searching for some info about alternatives to vaccination which anyone has used.

Sadly we haven't had anyone join the discussion who can educate any of us about homeopathics, and none of us are vets. So no-one has been able to actually give her the info she was looking for Sorry FTPO.

[Odette]

It sounds to me like Dr Wilson has a vested interest in promoting homeopathy, given that he is a member of a number of groups, and President of the Australian Holistic Veterinarians :D I don't know about what form a "homeopathic vaccine" comes, injected or oral, it really doesn't matter - I don't believe that they work. i cannot see how an animal can successfully mount an immune response against an antigen in a solution so dilute that the antigen is no longer detectable in the solution. That's just common sense. And I'm sure that many veterinarians ARE using homeopathies, they simply don't have to undergo the same scrutiny that human medicine does - really opens up the doors for those peddling homeopathy, doesn't it?

If I was in the business, I know where I'd be trying to sell my goods! And that's what you need to remember - it's a business.

There are plenty of doctors and therapists with the same qualifications in human medicine that also promote homeopathy for the treatment of human disease - it doesn't mean that they are as effective, or have undergone the same level of scrutiny in regards to safety and efficacy. Plenty of people have their heart in the right place, sure, but they go against the fundamental principles of research and proper scientific investigation when they promote a treatment or drug that does not have any real proof behind its method or principle! Hoping that something works doesn't mean that 1) it works or 2) that it's safe. You also need more than a handful of cases to prove efficacy too, and large scale studies are simply not done or reported, because the methodology is often so flawed that they can't publish in peer-reviewed journals!

I wouldn't risk my animals health, to be quite honest.

Thing is - conventional medicine is also a big business. Some would say the biggest. We probably need to remember that, too. Personally, I have no problem being sceptical about anything, or anyone.

Nobody here has asked anyone to risk their animals' health.

Because she has a dog which has had a vaccine reaction, the OP was simply searching for some info about alternatives to vaccination which anyone has used.

Sadly we haven't had anyone join the discussion who can educate any of us about homeopathics, and none of us are vets. So no-one has been able to actually give her the info she was looking for ;) Sorry FTPO.

That's true, it IS big business, but it's also regulated. You can be pretty sure that whatever you are using has had to pass a number of tests and regulations - same cant be said for homeopathics.

And to stress a point - there is no proof, at all... :p

But yeah, it's good to keep an open mind, and make educated choices...

I would think that "vaccinating" your dog using a homeopathic vaccine is taking a HUGE risk for your dogs health, particularly with parvo and other life threatening infections?