Prong Collars - Q&a

[Guest Tess32]

I'd never walk my dog on anything other than a prong collar. My dog does not pull on lead with one, but will when using a conventional collar which can cause spinal injuries.

Interesting comment. Everything I've read from "experts" points to the prong collar as being a training tool.....a means to an end. A useful tool to train the dog to walk on a loose leash. The same way I used a head halter........the dog doesn't pull, praise him and use positive reinforcement for walking on a loose leash, then gradually reintroduce a flat collar or a chain and eventually ditch the training tool.

This comment tells me there's no training going on here......the prong collar is a permanant solution to the problem.

That's what I was going to say.

But we had a similar discussion ages and ages ago on here about check chains, and I believe many people still used them even when the dog is trained, in case a correction is required.

[Gayle.]

I've gone from a head halter to a snake chain cos it's easy to slip over Bensons boofhead....or a limited slip collar (same reason) or a flat collar. I like to mix it up so he doesn't think he only has to behave in ONE type of collar. His correction though, is my voice.

And I thought that was the reason for using a prong collar.....to teach the dog to walk on a loose leash and to teach them to respond to verbal commands.

[MonElite]

And I thought that was the reason for using a prong collar.....to teach the dog to walk on a loose leash and to teach them to respond to verbal commands.

It is. its a matter on how well will people train the dog, that is how far they are going to take the training to. Some are happy with instant results and dont bother progressing. Do you think there is something wrong with that?

[Gayle.]

Do you think there is something wrong with that?

I don't think there's anything "wrong" with that...but putting a device on a dog and getting instant results is NOT training the dog. I could tie the dogs legs together and make it hop.....that isn't training it to hop, that's just tying it's legs together, now it has to hop. The dog doesn't have a choice. Putting a prong collar on the dog to stop it pulling is doing just that...it's not training it to stop pulling, it's just forcing it to because it no longer has much of a choice.

The prong collar used this way is NOT a training tool, the handler isn't training the dog at all and the dog has simply stopped pulling because if it pulls it feels discomfort. It merely becomes a non-pulling device.

The problem with that is that you always have to have a prong collar handy to take the dog for a walk, or the dog is unwalkable because it pulls too hard.

By actually using the prong collar (or any non-pulling device) as a training tool, you can teach the dog to walk on a loose leash by using voice commands and eventually it can be walked with any collar or no collar at all.

And *this* is what I thought professional trainers were advocating in their support of prong collars.

[MonElite]

The prong collar used this way is NOT a training tool, the handler isn't training the dog at all and the dog has simply stopped pulling because if it pulls it feels discomfort. It merely becomes a non-pulling device.

This could be said about any traing tool, or anti pulling device.

By actually using the prong collar (or any non-pulling device) as a training tool, you can teach the dog to walk on a loose leash by using voice commands and eventually it can be walked with any collar or no collar at all.

That is correct, you can.

And *this* is what I thought professional trainers were advocating in their support of prong collars.

Again correct, however its up to the owners to train their dogs. If they are provided with any type of a tool, right instructions they need to actually action the training.

Some dont, regardless of what tool they are given.

[Erny]

...putting a device on a dog and getting instant results is NOT training the dog. ...

It is the beginning of training.

Putting a prong collar on the dog to stop it pulling is doing just that...it's not training it to stop pulling, it's just forcing it to because it no longer has much of a choice.

(My highlight)

I disagree - it is actually giving the dog a clear choice. Pull, or don't pull. When a dog can clearly see where its best advantage lays, it usually makes the 'right' (read : the one we want) decision. Of course, like with any tool, there are things we do as the dog's trainer to help make those choices even clearer, and so the dog learns.

The prong collar used this way is NOT a training tool ....

Not sure what "this" way is (have I've missed a post?). But if it is in relation to the earlier comment by someone that their dog pulls when it is not wearing the collar it is possible the dog's become 'collar-wise', I agree that more work can be done so that the dog learns that it is about his 'behaviour' on lead, not about the collar. I like to work dogs (regardless of tool) so that they will walk on a loose lead - again, regardless of equipment. THEN I know the dog is trained to a loose lead and not to the equipment.

The problem with that is that you always have to have a prong collar handy to take the dog for a walk, or the dog is unwalkable because it pulls too hard.

No probs with using whichever equipment as a 'stop gap' for the event that a training experience might be required out of the blue (my girl used to wear a check chain, although I don't recall actually needing to administer a correction with it in the last 3 years before I lost her, although I could also take her out on a flat collar equally as well), but I agree that a dog isn't truly trained to walk on a loose lead if it is relying on the equipment itself for its choice to do so.

By actually using the prong collar (or any non-pulling device) as a training tool, you can teach the dog to walk on a loose leash by using voice commands and eventually it can be walked with any collar or no collar at all.

Agree.

And *this* is what I thought professional trainers were advocating in their support of prong collars.

IMO *this* is what professional trainers and non-professional trainers alike should be advocating of any training equipment.

Edited May 15, 2008 by Erny

[alpha bet]

Prong Collars - hmmmmm - Similar arguement that horseriders have with the use of different bits.

Generally in the horse world, the bigger the bit, the less the brain.... seems to me it would be easier to find a solution to the problem instead of adding a stronger tool.

Now guess Im going to get 'howled' down for daring to challenge.

happy howling

[Erny]

Prong Collars - hmmmmm - Similar arguement that horseriders have with the use of different bits.

Generally in the horse world, the bigger the bit, the less the brain.... seems to me it would be easier to find a solution to the problem instead of adding a stronger tool.

Now guess Im going to get 'howled' down for daring to challenge.

happy howling

No "howling" from here, Annezelvys. I like challenges. It is where people learn the most. But something IMO you have 'wrong'. The prong collar would be best described as a 'different' tool - not at "stronger" one. It is the ONLY collar that does not work on the dog's muscle - it works on the skin. Not to damage or pierce it, as some opponents to the tool might falsely claim ... but by applying a 'pinch' effect the dog responds to more easily and readily than it might with other collars. And with the ready response comes a more expedient window of opportunity for reward. And the dog learns faster. And that has to be better for the dog .

Edited May 16, 2008 by Erny

[Gayle.]

Erny, what would happen if someone gave too strong of a correction while the dog was wearing a prng collar? I've heard of people giving a correction chain a hard enough yank that it's lifted the dog off it's feet (never seen it and never wish to, just the thought makes me sick)......what would happen if the dog was wearing a prong collar in this instance?

[Rom]

GayleK, when I was first investigating prong collars I put one on a cushion....a round calico covered bolster cushion. I attached my best lead, stood on the cushion a foot either side of the prong and gave it all I had. I could not make the prongs pierce the calico. If I maintained a constant (and I only did this so that I could observe the effect in slow motion) pressure on the lead the 'pressure footprint' for want of a better phrase is similar to that which you would get from an ordinary martingale or limited slip collar.

With the above in mind, my experience is that if too strong a correction is given with a dog on the prong, then the effect would be similar if too strong a correction is given if a dog is wearing an ordinary martingale or limited slip collar so far as risk of injury may be concerned. My dog used to be quite happy to give her self a level of correction (by lunging on lead) that I wouldn't have been happy to use on her because of the risk of injury at that level.....in fact she on occasion flipped herself off her feet and landed on her back or rump wearing an ordinary martingale, and once on a show check chain. Delivering herself that level of correction was not severe enough to her to change the behaviour.....she'd just get up and have another go.

With the prong, we could use a lower level of correction to get a behavioural change and all we risked was a pinch on the skin. My dog still sometimes gets aroused enough by something to want to try and influence the direction that we travel in, but these days, she doesn't show that arousal by leash tension....she just stands on her back legs looking at that which has caught her attention but doesn't put tension on the lead....the other day we flushed a hare while we were out on a walk and she did just this......but now she breaks off at a command and gets rewarded for that rather than either flipping herself off her feet or pulling me off mine. Overall much better for both our health LOL!

The other thing is I haven't yet been able to deliver myself a pinch from the PPC prongs themselves that equated to the level or intensity of pain of the pinch that I get from the chain portion of either the PPC or an ordinary martingale collar where the chain runs through the rings and I've tried it on both my neck and my thigh.

Edited May 17, 2008 by Rom

[charli73]

Erny, what would happen if someone gave too strong of a correction while the dog was wearing a prng collar? I've heard of people giving a correction chain a hard enough yank that it's lifted the dog off it's feet (never seen it and never wish to, just the thought makes me sick)......what would happen if the dog was wearing a prong collar in this instance?

I cant speak for Erny but I can guess it would be something along the lines of this:

Any Idiot who uses the prong collar to give a correction so hard that it would pull the dog off its feet IMO should NOT have the prong collar in the first place. If you are trained correctly and using it correctly you would never need to give a correction that hard, that is one of the great benefits of this training tool. But if you did? It would prob give a damn hard pinch. But you just would'nt do it. And its because of idiots who used them incorrectly that they got banned from use in Vic in the first place.

Sorry just wanted to throw my two bobs in.

[Kavik]

Probably the same thing that would happen if you overcorrect on any other collar - the dog may shut down, may vocalise.

[Andisa]

Prong Collars - hmmmmm - Similar arguement that horseriders have with the use of different bits.

Generally in the horse world, the bigger the bit, the less the brain.... seems to me it would be easier to find a solution to the problem instead of adding a stronger tool.

Now guess Im going to get 'howled' down for daring to challenge.

happy howling

Hmm, I have just popped in to this thread to try to get a better understanding about the prong collars. I have a young 7 mth old Rottie bitch who can be very strong. If I walk her on my own she is very good, but if I have another dog with me being led by someone else I have a hell of a battle until half way around the block until she settles down. Not my idea of having a nice peaceful walk.

Since you have used the horse / bit as an example I am now even more set on learning about using a prong. I need to get this girl to settle on walks with other dogs. I had horses for almost 20 years. Most of them I used a soft snaffle bit, Tom thumb or an egg butt. 2 of them took me ages and heaps of money to find the right bit. I did not want to go to a hard bit as I thought it was too cruel. But the reality of it being that the horses were bloody dangerous if I could not control them properly. So I ended up going with a portmouth pelham with chain. (both straight and curbed - with and with out players) You name it I would have tried it. Exercise had nothing to do with it as my "short rides" were usually around 10 MILES, when I had time I would do anything from 10 - 40 MILES sometimes much more. I was doing trail riding in those days so everything was fit including me. ;) The horse that caused me the most grief I kept for 15 years, he only got the message when he was getting into his golden years.

So if I am to think of a prong collar on a dog like I would with a hard bit on a horse, I am all for the prong collar used correctly, as control is vital.

Now I am going to go back through all the posts to learn more about something that I thought was not a nice tool to use on any dog. Only now I have a different understanding about how good a prong really can be when used correctly.

ED:

Ok Read it all and I am open to learn more on the prong collar if I need to use one in the future. :rolleyes:

Edited May 17, 2008 by Lisa M

[sjl79]

Slightly OT, sorry, but I am really curious. I use a harness on Timmy as he is tiny (2.8kg) and has a very slender neck (it seems to be the only bit of him that hasn't really grown). I have had pressure from trainers to use a ltd slip to train and walk him. I have decided against as one day last month we were walking him (on harness) and a big dog came charging across causing Timmy to try to bolt. He moved so quick he actually took flight! I shudder to think what would've happened had he been in a regular, ltd slip, or choke collar.

It is really putting me off enrolling him in obedience club and my current trainer (they have been great to date, BB) can't even get a ltd slip to fit Timmy.

Thoughts???

[Rom]

You could try Blackdog Wear....I believe that they will make up collars to order if you need special sizes.

Link

[Just Midol]

I'd never walk my dog on anything other than a prong collar. My dog does not pull on lead with one, but will when using a conventional collar which can cause spinal injuries.

Interesting comment. Everything I've read from "experts" points to the prong collar as being a training tool.....a means to an end. A useful tool to train the dog to walk on a loose leash. The same way I used a head halter........the dog doesn't pull, praise him and use positive reinforcement for walking on a loose leash, then gradually reintroduce a flat collar or a chain and eventually ditch the training tool.

This comment tells me there's no training going on here......the prong collar is a permanant solution to the problem.

It is a training tool.

But I use it on all walks in case he does need a correction.

If I don't have it on him and he does something wrong, I can't correct him... can I? If it's on him and he does nothing wrong then it'll never need to be used.

BTW, I don't even own a flat collar. I only own a prong for Gizmo... Why do I want him walking on a flat collar? I take the prong with me everywhere just like any one else takes their flat collar everywhere.

Edited May 17, 2008 by Lord Midol

[Erny]

Erny, what would happen if someone gave too strong of a correction while the dog was wearing a prng collar?

I've modified this quote to read as follows :

Erny, what would happen if someone gave too strong of a correction while the dog was wearing a head collar?

I don't think more needs to be said as far as that 'line' is concerned (although I'm happy enough to if anyone wants me to ) as I think this makes its own point. .............. Well, actually no - on second thoughts, it doesn't. I think the damage would occur more severely, possibly permanently and more readily, if one gave too strong a correction via a head-collar.

I've heard of people giving a correction chain a hard enough yank that it's lifted the dog off it's feet (never seen it and never wish to, just the thought makes me sick)......what would happen if the dog was wearing a prong collar in this instance?

Point is that it's not going to be necessary. For a person to have corrected with a check chain so hard that it's lifted the dog off it's feet indicates the possibility that the check chain was an ineffective tool for the dog. It should never have reached that stage and perhaps it wouldn't have had someone been able (or allowed by law) to instruct on the use of a PPCollar it wouldn't have reached that stage.

"What if" could be applied to anything. Why isn't is applied to head-collars? Why aren't people enraged about them? Evidence exists of the damage that has been caused by them. Yet more people are enraged about the "what ifs" for PPCollars even in the absence of such evidence. How can this be?

Edited May 17, 2008 by Erny

[Erny]

Lisa M - I'm glad you are keeping an open mind and making the decision to check into training equipment (whichever sort) to learn and understand more. We always fear what we don't know or understand, and IME that is the case for many people who oppose the PPCollar. IE - They don't know or understand them.

I don't equate the PPCollar to a horse bit though (just as I don't equate a head-collar to a horse halter). They are two different animals with very different neck structure. One is a prey animal and the other is an animal of prey - so there are also different psyches to take into account.

Many people IMO wrongly deduce that just because the dog is more responsive to the PPCollar than other collars, the PPCollar must be the more severe. But is it? Severe to what? The muscle? The skeletal structure? No - it achieves responses in dogs where other collars fail because it works differently. It works on the skin - it takes less of a correction to be felt, thereby removing the severity of possible damage to these physical aspects of the dog. And the increased positive response from the dog affords it greater learning potential for more acceptable behaviour, and thus, greater/more frequent rewards.

Why wouldn't anyone wish this for their problematic dog? It pertains to dog welfare.

Edited May 17, 2008 by Erny

[Gayle.]

Erny, I don't think you understood why I was asking. The person who over-corrects with a check chain, enough to lift a large dog off it's feet, shouldn't be in charge of a dog. But they are. Chains, head collars, flat collars.....yes, I know the damage they do when they are incorrectly used. That wasn't what I was asking.

If a prong collar was used with such force, what would happen to the dog? Your reply is in the vein that the person using the collar knows what they are doing and cares about the dogs welfare. Not everyone is like that. Prong collars aren't illegal in most places and I would imagine they are freely available in some countries (they are freely available on eBay) so I can only imagine there are people using them incorrectly for whatever reason. I was interested in what might happen to the dog who is wearing it at the time.

[Erny]

Erny, I don't think you understood why I was asking. The person who over-corrects with a check chain, enough to lift a large dog off it's feet, shouldn't be in charge of a dog. But they are. Chains, head collars, flat collars.....yes, I know the damage they do when they are incorrectly used. That wasn't what I was asking.

If a prong collar was used with such force, what would happen to the dog? Your reply is in the vein that the person using the collar knows what they are doing and cares about the dogs welfare. Not everyone is like that. Prong collars aren't illegal in most places and I would imagine they are freely available in some countries (they are freely available on eBay) so I can only imagine there are people using them incorrectly for whatever reason. I was interested in what might happen to the dog who is wearing it at the time.

Sorry GayleK .... I thought the question was a rhetorical one, designed to pose argument in itself. Didn't realise it was genuine - hard to tell sometimes when things are put in writing, so apologies.

To answer your question though ..... there is no evidence of harm caused by a PPCollar. Because I see Head-Collars, Check Chains, Martingales and even flat collars used incorrectly (read : with excessive force) I can only assume that there are people out there who might do the same with the PPCollar. There is evidence fairly freely and available in relation to harm caused through the mis-use (usually but possibly not exclusively accidental) of tools such as head-collars and check chains. But I think that there not being any evidentiary harm reported in relation to PPCollars, could be somewhat telling? In otherwords, it doesn't - cause harm, I mean? Either because the 'limited slip' action prevents the prongs exceeding their designed limits and/or because the dog responds so much more efficiently that excessive over correction does not become necessary.

This is the only conclusion I can draw.

Make sense?

Edited May 17, 2008 by Erny