Choke Chains For Basic Commands. Too Much?

[IncrediJack]

I'm considering taking my dog to a farmstay for boarding and training for a week. A friend of mine took her pup and totally raves about it. My only hesitation is that majority of the course is done with a choke chain. While I understand they can be useful for lead-walking and certain kinds of training, I'm wondering, "Is a choke chain too much for basic commands? Sit, drop, stay . . . Why not just break out the Schmackos? Is this something I should be concerned about? Or is the norm these days?

[Guest Tess32]

Do you mean sending your dog off somewhere to be trained?

No it is not the norm. There may be 'some' ok places like this, but think about it - most dogs take longer than a week to learn something. They have to learn the vocal cue, it has to be proofed, they have to learn to do it under distraction. Most companies that guarantee training in a week are under pressure to get the dog performing, and it's an unrealistic and unfair expectation. Not only that, but it doesn't train YOU how to train your dog.

Training your dog is a bonding exercise and you will learn your dog, please don't let someone else do it for you.

And yes sorry, but anyone who has to teach sit, drop etc using a check chain as a default for all dogs is not someone I would trust. Nothing against check chains, but correcting a dog before it even knows the command, is not acceptable to me.

[persephone]

Tess, I THINK she meant that they are both staying at the farmstay for the week ?

Could be a good plan, IF the person doing the training is capable of good people -teaching skills

Use of check/correction chain?

I guess if there are several/lots of different dogs there, most lacking training, the check chain would be handy for the owners to help control the dogs.... ...

Check chains are only as gentle/loose/harsh as the person holding the leash!

Flat collars can be used effectively

We never used treats for training (except for going into a pen/kennel or vehicle)..and don't use a check chain either, these days

Then again, our dogs don't have to cope with city life!

[IncrediJack]

Tess, I THINK she meant that they are both staying at the farmstay for the week ?

Could be a good plan, IF the person doing the training is capable of good people -teaching skills

Use of check/correction chain?

I guess if there are several/lots of different dogs there, most lacking training, the check chain would be handy for the owners to help control the dogs.... ...

Check chains are only as gentle/loose/harsh as the person holding the leash!

Flat collars can be used effectively

We never used treats for training (except for going into a pen/kennel or vehicle)..and don't use a check chain either, these days

Then again, our dogs don't have to cope with city life!

No, it's a drop off farmstay. I really enjoy training my puppy. He knows the basic commands anyway, although I don't know if he would drop from a distance or sit when another dog is approaching. He certainly will perform in his own backyard, though. The appeal about the farmstay was having him professionally trained to get a handle on barking, digging, and biting. Important, as I have two young children, so biting is not on. And the barking, someone is going to complain. He goes to puppy preschool, but I am really seeking meatier professional help. I haven't talked to the trainer at the school yet, but my friend (who says her dog is now aces, mentioned the choke chain. Pull until they yelp?? Sounds like military school.

[Kavik]

Most likely they use compulsion based training - guide/physically place the dogs into position.

As with most things, there are good places and bad. I am wary of boarding/training places after my parents sent a Beagle to be trained. They had said positive methods used. Not only was a check chain on the dog (I have no problem with them, but a place using positive only wouldn't use them) but it was obvious from the way the dog acted that they had used harsh methods, possibly even hitting him from the way he cowered. And he was not a soft dog who would cower easily.

Edited February 19, 2008 by Kavik

[Guest Tess32]

He needs to be taught by you how to work from a distance and under distraction

Pull into yelping? NO puppy should EVER be hurt enough to yelp during training.

I strongly recommend you don't do it and find a great obedience school so you can train and enjoy your own puppy.

[Erny]

The appeal about the farmstay was having him professionally trained to get a handle on barking, digging, and biting. Important, as I have two young children, so biting is not on. And the barking, someone is going to complain. He goes to puppy preschool, but I am really seeking meatier professional help. I haven't talked to the trainer at the school yet, but my friend (who says her dog is now aces, mentioned the choke chain. Pull until they yelp?? Sounds like military school.

How old is your puppy? Check chains shouldn't be used on a pup younger than 16 weeks old and even then it may not be necessary or appropriate.

IMO, behaviours such as barking, digging and biting don't get fixed at a boarding type arrangement. These behaviours start in the home environment amongst the family it knows, and should be dealt with amongst the family it knows. This involves YOU being educated on what to do to enhance your leadership; what it might be that YOU are doing which might be enhancing these behaviours; what YOU can do to help teach your pup these behaviours are not desired; and teach YOU to teach your pup what behaviours are preferred.

Sending a dog to boarding for these things IMO is like sending kids to school expecting teachers to do the parenting. Your pup might well learn not to bite (I presume you mean "mouthing") at the boarding place, but it doesn't mean the respect it learns there is going to automatically transfer to you.

To me it sounds as though you'd be better off with someone coming to your home and showing you the way.

ETA: Who said the check chain should be used to "pull until they yelp"?

Edited February 19, 2008 by Erny

[persephone]

No, it's a drop off farmstay

Oh

Oops..I misunderstood..when you said you were taking..I presumed you would be wih him.

I agree with Erny, too.

I don't think this is a good plan...

HOW will they teach him about not digging/barking in YOUR environment?

HOW will they teach YOU to anticipate and correct his behaviour?

NO way would I leave my pup with anyone if I had not observed them working with dogs and were happy with them.

but I am really seeking meatier professional help.

Ok..for the money you will spend at the farmstay..how about you engage the services of a professional behaviourist/trainer to work with YOU and your DOG as a TEAM, at home, where you are both more comfortable, and where the problems occur?

I'm sure if you give us a rough location, someone could recommend a professional in your area

PS... a week is not a long time to 'train' a dog out of certain behaviours and into good behaviour patterns :p

Edited February 19, 2008 by persephone

[IncrediJack]

Thanks everyone. I agree it sounds too good to be true, and I really don't like the idea of the choke chain, especially the "pull until they yelp" part. I will look elsewhere. I live on the Gold Coast, if anyone has any recommendations. Pup is 4 months old.

Edited February 19, 2008 by IncrediJack

[laffi]

Thanks everyone. I agree it sounds too good to be true, and I really don't like the idea of the choke chain, especially the "pull until they yelp" part. I will look elsewhere. I live on the Gold Coast, if anyone has any recommendations. Pup is 4 months old.

I don't believe in quick fixes. Training is fun and helps you to develop a great relationship with your dog.

[sidoney]

Wow four months is just a baby still. Have to agree with the getting someone to see you on site comments.

[Gayle.]

Join a local dog obedience club and learn to train the dog yourself. It's really good fun for both you and the dog.

[StaceyB]

Join a local dog obedience club and learn to train the dog yourself. It's really good fun for both you and the dog.

I have to ditto this.

I have just joined my local club and take Gypsy to obedience classes. It's great socialisation for her, she is learning to do things with distractions and they give us step by step instructions to take home to revise what was taught during the class.

I also believe that the dog will respond better for you if you are more hands on with the training rather than taking him away from his home and family and being totally removed from his comfort zone. It will also teach him that you are his pack leader, which makes things easier for you in the long run and will build on his respect for you.

[Lablover]

Normally it takes a while for a dog to settle in a professional kennel environment.

Owners expect miracles in a short time frame. As a result techniques may be rushed.

Time is money. I would suggest locating an excellent trainer who offers one on one training.

[IncrediJack]

Join a local dog obedience club and learn to train the dog yourself. It's really good fun for both you and the dog.

Thanks, I do take him to obedience. I guess I will just keep doing what I'm doing and not expect too much.

[StaceyB]

Join a local dog obedience club and learn to train the dog yourself. It's really good fun for both you and the dog.

Thanks, I do take him to obedience. I guess I will just keep doing what I'm doing and not expect too much.

A 4 month old pup is not likely to have the greatest attention span too (something akin to a paperclip in my experience :D )

I struggle with Gypsy at training because she is such a social butterfly and just wants to play with all the other dogs, but I follow the trainers instructions during our daily walks and she is pretty good. She is also only 9months old so has an attention span slightly better than a paperclip, but still very short. You just need to be patient and consistent and he'll get the hang of it.

What breed is your pup btw? This may effect how quickly he learns/reacts to the comands too as some breeds are a lot more stubborn/independant than others...

[IncrediJack]

Join a local dog obedience club and learn to train the dog yourself. It's really good fun for both you and the dog.

Thanks, I do take him to obedience. I guess I will just keep doing what I'm doing and not expect too much.

A 4 month old pup is not likely to have the greatest attention span too (something akin to a paperclip in my experience :D )

I struggle with Gypsy at training because she is such a social butterfly and just wants to play with all the other dogs, but I follow the trainers instructions during our daily walks and she is pretty good. She is also only 9months old so has an attention span slightly better than a paperclip, but still very short. You just need to be patient and consistent and he'll get the hang of it.

What breed is your pup btw? This may effect how quickly he learns/reacts to the comands too as some breeds are a lot more stubborn/independant than others...

He's a golden retriever. It probably doesn't help as well that of the last 6 weeks of puppy school, four of them have been rained out!

[Gayle.]

My dog is an Australian Shepherd and he's 11 months old. I've been taking him to obedience since he was 4 1/2 months and at first I didn't expect much but then I realised that the higher my expectations were, the faster he learned. So now I train him as if I expect him to do it well, and he does. A lot of it has to do with consistency (train him EVERY day) but also tone, manner and attitude. Positive tone, friendly manner and happy attitude will always rub off onto your dog.

[zoezoom]

Thanks everyone. I agree it sounds too good to be true, and I really don't like the idea of the choke chain, especially the "pull until they yelp" part. I will look elsewhere. I live on the Gold Coast, if anyone has any recommendations. Pup is 4 months old.

Please, please take your pup to an obedience school or have a trained professional come to you to help. Please also ensure they use "positive methods". I used to practice the old traditional methods and use a correction collar a few years ago. However, now I have been trained in positive methods I would never ever go back to the old ways. A stressed dog does not learn. I was watching a training video recently by the person who trains Inspector Rex (TV series) and I quote "If I can't make it fun I am a bad trainer". I am going to repeat this statement to my obedience class members regularly.

Take your time and have fun with your dog - you will be amazed at the progress if you are consistent and practice for 2 or 3 short sessions every day.

Good luck!

[Monah]

I agree with the others about taking your pup to obedience/having someone come to the house etc. I would never send any of mine away to be trained and at training it is mostly the TRAINER who is being trained (owner) to train the dog properly so the dog can understand what is required. YOU need just as much training as your pup. Gee, 4 months is so young, I would not expect much at that age except to be toilet trained and understand very basic commands. They need constant re enforcement for the dog to end up doing things on 'time' and fairly reliably. some dogs can take a couple of years, some are faster mainly owing to the owner putting in time, effort and consitencey.

Just 10 mins a day of training by you is enough at the moment. I find it very easy (I'm NO expert) just to do it in normal circumstances, ie. WAIT when getting out of the car/going through a door, NO and OFF when needed etc. and always a good dog, pat, reward of some kind as soon as they do the thing you require. In this way they learn basic manners quite quickly. to be honest, I'm really surprised a trainer would take a young dog on a farm stay type training course. The dog will be exhausted mentally and physically and not get anything out of it, will also be stressed the first few days. Sounds more like a money making exercise to me. I too do not like the choke chain idea and would the pup be being trained with dogs who are there because they have problem behaviour? would the pup be intimidated, frightened etc?Remembering dogs can do this from quite a distance. Yours could come back with fears it never had before. Good luck with your beautiful pup. As far as puppy school being rained out, it's really up to you to carry on doing things at home and to re enforce things you have already learnt. Mine also does flyball, and she will go perfectly for ages, then, voila! decide to go and have a sniff etc!!!! don't worry what any other dogs are doing either, just about yours, they all learn at their own pace and you can't compare. I'm sure being a goldie (I've had a couple) all will be fine in the end. It may take a year or two to have a fairly reliable dog, don't be in too much of a hurry. Have fun!!!!!! Even guide dogs don't start 'proper' training until they are about 12 months old, although they are taught manners etc. of course.