An Idea; "the Ultimate Dol Raw/prey Diet Information" Thread

[Guest Tess32]

I've seen this posted on a few raw lists as general info so presume it is ok to post here.

This is a public service message that summarizes the basics of raw

feeding for new raw feeders with puppies. The information is gathered

from this list and the rawfeeding list, as well as several

nutritional resources on the internet which you can find by googling!

I hope new members find it useful.

Puppies need meaty meaty meaty bones: Puppies need more protein than

adult dogs as they grow at an incredible rate. Protein contains

essential amino acids, the building blocks of your future dog. Muscle

meat is a great source of protein, but it contains a lot of

phosphorus and is low in calcium.

That is why puppies need bones (and other connective tissue like

cartilage). These provide biologically balanced minerals, especially

calcium, but also copper, iodine, iron, magnesium, zinc, and

manganese. The best and safest way to provide balanced calcium and

phosphorus is by feeding raw meaty bones that have between 10 and 15%

edible bone in them. Puppy does not have to eat all the bone, if

sufficient edible bone is offered, in general puppies will get enough

calcium for normal skeletal development. Supplemental calcium should

not be fed to growing pups. Puppies do not have a mechanism for

controlling over-absorption of calcium, which leads to a

calcium/phosphorus imbalance and abnormal skeletal growth.

Puppies need fat in their diets – high quality animal fat, which

means the raw fat that comes attached to the meat. Some trimming of

incredibly fatty meats is ok, but don't trim drastically.

Puppies need to eat organs. About 8% of the total diet should be a

mix of organs which provide an enzyme-rich mixture of protein, B-

complex vitamins, vitamins A and D, some vitamin C, and essential

fatty acids EPA, DHA, and AA, along minerals such as manganese,

selenium, zinc, potassium and copper. Liver has a high iron, Vitamin

A and B12, and folate content, as well as niacin and pantothenic

acid. Like muscle meat, organs contain a lot of phosphorus (and

potassium) and are low in calcium. Heart counts as a muscle meat more

than it does as an organ. So do chicken gizzards.

Green tripe is a great food for puppies. It is the stomach from grass

eating animals which contains beneficial bacteria, essential fatty

acids and other nutrients, and it has a very good calcium/phosphorus

ratio.

Puppies need approximately double the amount of vitamin E as adult

dogs. It is found in organs, (liver, heart, kidneys, brains) and in

red meats in moderate amounts, and in eggs and fish in plentiful

amounts. The essential fatty acid DHA (Omega 3) is also plentiful in

fish and in organs like brains, kidneys, and liver.

In summary, if you feed a variety of raw meaty (and I mean meaty)

bones, with an overall average of 10 to 15% edible bone, and you feed

some organs that add up to about 8% of the diet, you've got all the

bases covered.

If bone percentage strays much higher than these values, you may be

feeding too much bone at the expense of much needed protein and

throwing off the calcium/phosphorus ratio – which can interfere with

proper bone formation. If you fed primarily chicken necks, wings, and

frames, for example, your bone percentage would be in the

neighborhood of 50-60% or higher. That's not good.

If organs are not fed, the diet may be lacking in vitamins and fatty

acids, iron, and other necessary stuff. You could make up some of

this in eggs and other food items, but organs are ideal. Dogs that

don't like liver can usually be converted by partially freezing it,

or offering it lightly seared the first few times.

Organs are rich, and generally should be fed in small portions along

with the regular meal. Feeding a "liver only" or "organs only" meal

is pretty much a guaranteed way of giving your dog the runs. Organs

need not be fed every day – you just want to get an average of 8%

over the long run.

Do not be tempted to feed more than 8% of organs, especially if you

are using mainly liver. This is too much of a good thing, and your

pup will be overloaded with non water soluble vitamins which he or

she cannot eliminate. Too much vitamin A will interfere with vitamin

D activity which is essential for calcium absorption, and cause

brittle bones prone to fracture.

If you feel like you need to supplement for Omega 3 (grain fed meat

animals are low in Omega 3 compared to grass fed animals) do so with

fish oil. While some form of Omega-3 can be found in flaxseed,

walnuts and a few other foods, the most beneficial form of Omega-3 -

containing 2 fatty acids, EPA and DHA - can be found only in fish.

Do not supplement with Cod Liver Oil. Cod Liver Oil is like liver… it

contains vitamins A and D and using it as a supplement in addition to

raw feeding could be overdoing it on both counts.

Do not supplement with other vitamins. The best source of nutrients

is from whole foods, and a balanced and varied diet. Supplements are

only needed if a dog cannot receive all of the nutrients it needs

because it either can't or doesn't eat enough, or can't or doesn't

eat a variety of species appropriate foods. Supplementing vitamins

and minerals is never a good substitute for healthy feeding. First of

all, vitamins, minerals, and nutrients that imbalanced will interfere

with the correct functioning or absorption of other vitamins and

nutrients. Secondly, randomly supplementing because something sounds

like a good idea can lead to providing excessive levels or one or

more nutrients if you do not know what puppy is already getting in

their food. Calcium is one of the most commonly over supplemented

items.

[Joypod]

Gus is still getting two meals a day. This is my weekly feeding schedule for him:

MONDAY: RMB (chicken and lamb). 1 egg including the shell.

TUESDAY: RMB plus offal (liver, kidney, gibblets, brain, tripe)

WEDNESDAY: RMB plus a small chunk of meat (chicken or kangaroo)

THURSDAY: 2-3 whole sardines

FRIDAY: RMB plus offal

SATURDAY: RMB plus offal

SUNDAY: RMB plus chunk of meat

I'm not feeding him any beef just yet as the couple of times he's had it, it's given him the runs. I'll wait until he's a bit older. Otherwise, I'm happy to give him any other meat at all.

I freeze all his food before feeding it to him (which destroys Vitamin E) so he gets a Vitamin E supplement every day which also contains Omega 3 & 6.

I can't tell you really how much I feed him. I pretty much just keep an eye on his waistline.

[espinay2]

As a basis yes. I guess my point is that people who say that dogs are descendants of wolves and should be fed like a wolf are incorrect in my opinion. The same goes for comparing a dogs behaviour to that of a wolf in the wild.

I have spent some time in the US with renowned ethologist Dr Erich Klinghammer who is responsible for developing the wolf behaviour ethogram. When it comes to comparing wolf and dog behaviour - while there are differences in the intensity and frequency of certain behaviours (and there are between certain breeds of dog too) they have exactly the same behaviour set.

Edited February 22, 2008 by espinay2

[Joypod]

That's really interesting. Are there any books/articles about that espinay2? I'd actually be interested in finding out more.

[niki schaef]

great idea amstaff shane!! ive recently switched to a prey diet for my boy and im loving it- as is he i had a similar idea to you- but i went through all dol/internet pages and hi-lighted the bits i wanted and printed them off. my ted was on a barf diet but in my opinion it wasnt working and after a bit of research im a firm believer that dogs are carnivores- not omnivores. you just have to look at their teeth. all dogs teeth have a sharp edge to them as opposed to the back, flat grinding teeth of a true omnivore (such as humans). and plus whenever i have feed ted veggies they just end up on the back lawn but if he wants to eat grass he is more then welcome- thats the only plant material he gets.

one thing i must add- dont give too much variety too soon!! i found this out the hard way. i was over-keen to give ted a variety of things and he got the runs bad!! so after a week on just chicken his poo is now nice again i was worried about giving him a blanced diet straight away- but to everyone thinking about switching- only feed one food source for at least the first week then start adding other things. this will also let you know if your dog has a problem with a particular type of meat. also organs shouldnt be feed until about a month into the diet- TAKE IT SLOW!!

this is the way i'm doing it:

week 1- all chicken

week 2- added turkey then lamb (i did 2 meat sources in a week as ted didnt have a problem and poos remained nice and firm)

week 3- added fish

week 4- added beef

week 5- small amount of organ meat. when i first tried to give ted organs he got the runs big time (too much too soon) so im just adding tiny bits and gradually building up the amount over time.

im actually only up to week 3. but this is the plan.

ted menu last week looks something like this

mon- chicken 1/4

tues- chicken wings (1 morning and night)

wed- turkey neck

thurs- chicken wings (morning/night)

fri-chicken thigh (meat only)

sat- chicken 1/4

sun- lamb fillet.

this is a fair bit of bone as ted seems to get quite a loose poo if he isnt fed much bone. wings arent ideal as there is hardly any meat but there was a really good special on and i couldn't resist!! will cut bone down in the future.

eventually it will read something like this

mon- chicken 1/4

tues- turkey neck

wed- chicken thigh, chicken wing

thurs- lamb roast (either meat with bone or not)

fri- chicken drumstick, chicken liver

sat- whole fish or tinned with an egg

sun- chicken 1/4

OR whatever i happern to grab out the freezer

in the freezer i have (in preperation!!)

chicken 1/4 (whole cut up lenards had them 2 for $8 that a dollar a meal!!)

chicken wings

chicken necks

chicken drumsticks

chicken liver

chicken giblets

chicken thigh

chicken frames

chicken hearts

lamb necks

lamb fillet

lamb shanks

lambs fry

lamb leg roast (bone in)

beef steak

beef mince

beef stir-fry strips

beef roast

turkey necks

turkey wings

turkey drumsticks

kangaroo tail

whole fish (tommy ruff)

tin sardines, salmon, mackeral

i've found that grocery stores can have meat (beef/lamb) out quite cheap in bulk packs if you can catch it when they are on sale or reduced due to near use-by. although ted is only small so this stuff can be cut up into a few small meals.

depending on what ted gets that day i vary his meals between 1 and 2. after doing a bit of reading and asking a few questions on here i have found the prey diet to be quite easy and simple. its just a matter of being brave enough to take the step! as for amounts to feed, i worked out roughly ted would need about 200gms a day (hes 8kg so its around 2.5% i just wanted an easy figure ) used that as my starting point and went from there. but i dont worry too much- if he has a big meal eg chicken 1/4, one day then he'll get a small meal eg. a couple of chicken necks, the next day. watch your dogs weight and adjust accordingly. and watch their poo- you will become an expert poo watcher hard, dry, white= too much bone, soft, dark= not enough bone. easy have fun with it.

ted loves his diet and i love feeding him a natural diet and how i believe dogs are meant to eat. i will never go back to kibble.

[niki schaef]

geez hope someone get something out of my post. that was way too long

forgot to ask if anyone in adelaide feeds raw and knows where to get 'weird stuff' ( eg rabbit, deer, goat etc) could they let me know?

[Guest Tess32]

Instead of just the quarter chickens - consider buying boilers - they sell pretty darn cheaply and if you cut them in half...$1.50 a meal or so!

Can someone list what beef parts they feed?

[ness]

Where do you get kangaroo tail from schaef .

[niki schaef]

Where do you get kangaroo tail from schaef .

theres a butcher near me- marden shopping centre. they are pretty good if you go on the right day. sometimes can have loads of choice- other time hardly anything. start of the week is the best bet. they cut bones up into different sizes too. also do roo minced or diced.

do you feed ness raw?

[hopenfox]

Where do you get your boiler chickens from Tess32? I've never seen chickens for less than $5 and usually just buy normal ones when they're marked down close to $5. I'm jealous!

[ness]

Yep schaef Ness gets raw . I have an Adelaide supplier of goat .

[Maddy]

Anyone read Pottenger's Cats? That had some interesting recipes (for people) that could easily be adjusted for dogs.

The Brain Eggnog certainly sounded really disgusting interesting

I did have a copy but can't seem to find it.

[Amstaff Shane]

I just received a free huge box of fresh chicken carcases from a friend who knows a wholesale butcher. Absolutely stoked.

[Guest Tess32]

Where do you get your boiler chickens from Tess32? I've never seen chickens for less than $5 and usually just buy normal ones when they're marked down close to $5. I'm jealous!

Frankston Though the other day they were $5, but previously $3, hehe.

[espinay2]

That's really interesting. Are there any books/articles about that espinay2? I'd actually be interested in finding out more.

Dr Klinghammer is published so you could search for his work as well as that by Patricia Goodman. You could probably get hold of some of it, including the Ethogram, from Wolf Park in Battleground, Indiana. Anything by L David Mech is worth reading. His book "The Wolf: Ecology and Behaviour of an Endangered Species" is a good start. The Book 'Dogs' by Ray and Lorna Coppinger is also worth a look (although I don't personally agree with all their theories). Their discussion of the selection for and development of different traits in different breeds is interesting. Other resources include 'The Dogs Mind' by Bruce Fogle and 'Behaviour of Wolves, Dogs and Related Canids' by Michael W Fox. Lots more than this of course, but these are probably a good start for those who want to start reading more on the subject.

Edited February 22, 2008 by espinay2

[Bubbly]

Thanks for starting this thread.

I don't have my pup yet.... very impatiently waiting I am going to be feeding a prey model raw diet. The only issue I have yet to resolve is cost. Perhaps this topic could also be a venue for sharing suppliers and even forming bulk buying co-opps? I know that in the US many major cities have a bulk buying group or two and it can really help save on cost and allow people to offer more variety.

[allfortheckcs]

Good idea this thread, just a pity its turned into some people just going back and forth about what is a raw/prey diet, other than giving those of us who are thinking about starting a raw/prey diet information on what food to feed and what to start with, where to get the food etc

I would like to get more information on a raw diet, i dont think i could handle feeding my dog a whole dead wild animal for example as i'm also a registered animal career so this would not be appropriate for me, it would be like feeding my cat to my dog he he he

anyway hopefully this thread gets going and we get lots of useful ideas and information shortly.

thanks.

[Joypod]

Bewdiful... ta!

[Flaves]

Very interesting.

May have a go at it.

[poodlefan]

The first advice I'd give anyone contemplating a raw or prey diet is to buy some books and do their homework.

Good as the advice is here, I think it pays to do your own research.