An Idea; "the Ultimate Dol Raw/prey Diet Information" Thread

[espinay2]

Vehs suggested I pop in, so here I am

Bit of background - I have been feeding a raw diet for about 14 years (I think now) and have been involved fairly heavily with the 'raw diet movement' over that time. That said, my views are only that of one person and your milage may vary...

At this point in time I feed basically a prey model diet. 'Prey model' diet is a term that has come about to describe a diet which is more closely based on what a dog would eat in the wild both in type and in form. What that actually means for an individual can vary though. Some feed totally whole prey with skin, fur, guts and all. Some feed as a pack rather than individually. Some have taken it to mean feeding nothing but raw meat, bones and offal (the split with other raw diets is mostly based on the issues of veggies, grains, and mincing/grinding meat and bones). Most tend to feed mostly large pieces of meat and bones, some offal, and other things on an opportunistic basis occasionally.

For my own dogs I feed mostly large pieces of raw very meaty bones as the main part of the diet. This does not mean however, that this is all I feed. My dogs get offal and fish as well and also get other things like eggs, veggies, yoghurt, and even things like rice or oats etc on occasion. How can this be a prey model diet you say? Even Lonsdale suggests that feeding healthy food scraps as a small portion of the diet is fine. My dogs dont specifically get veggies or grains etc prepared for them, but do get them as occasional leftovers from our kitchen (probably a few spoonfuls about once or twice a week each).

I dont go out of my way to feed veggies and dont feed them in huge amounts. Several years ago a friend of mine arranged for a seminar with renowned wolf behaviour expert David Mech on the diet and feeding habits of wolves. He was asked specifically whether wolves eat the stomach contents of prey. His reply was that they do not eat the stomach contents of large prey. Small prey they may not bother to take it out, but the large animals they shake it out of the stomach before they eat the stomach. I have seen this myself working with a captive wolf population in the US. The wolf pack was fed whole prey and would shake out the stomach contents just like the wild wolves do.

Just as the basic nutritional requirements of modern city dwellers are no different to that of hunter gatherers thousands of years ago, the basic nutritional needs of dogs and wolves do not differ. Naturally there are variations in relation to energy requirements etc depending on how active an animal is, but that is calories, not basic nutritional requirement.

As for dogs grazing, I personally don't use this as a reason to feed them more veggies - I simply allow them to graze! (on healthy pesticide/herbicide free grass of course) It may be nutritional, it may be medicinal, but it is natural for them in a way that pureed veggies in a bowl isn't.

Things I feed include: chicken frames (or any other portion of the chicken including legs, thighs, maryland pieces etc including the odd whole chicken when I get them for a good price), turkey necks and frames, whole rabbits, kangaroo tails, whole lamb necks, lamb flaps, beef brisket, big whole chunks of beef meat, lambs hearts, liver, kidney, brains, tounge etc. I also take an opportunistic approach in buying whatever big meaty pieces I can get my hands on for a good price (including the odd sheep or pigs head). The less saw cuts in any bones and the larger the pieces I can get, the better I like it.

Many people raise pups on a raw diet both here and overseas. Many have multiple generations of raw raised dogs. I run an email list at yahoogroups called 'rawbreeder' which is a discussion group for breeders who feed a raw diet. A friend runs a 'sister' list called 'rawpup' which is primarily for pups after they go to their new homes.

My advice for those starting out. You can pick pretty much any of the books - Billinghurst, Kymythy Schultz, Lonsdale etc and follow their suggestions to be feeding a diet that is IMO way better than any commercial foods on offer. Once you are comfortable with this, with further reading and discussion you can 'tweak' the diet if you wish into a form that better suits you, your dog and your beliefs. Any of the books will give you a grounding in the basic principles. Some of thses principles include:

Keep it simple - feeding a raw diet should not involve hours of preparation and be overly complex

Feed variety - you should start with one or two things when switching over initially, but gradually you can feed a variety of different things, even if there are one or two that you use as your 'base' foods.

Balance over time - You dont have to include every single nutrient in every single meal. Do we eat like that? Balance different foods over a 10 to 14 day period or so.

Keep it simple - yes, I am repeating this.

Feed on average 2 -3% of a dogs adult (or estimated adult) weight daily. But this is a GUIDE only. Some dogs eat more and some eat less. some may need different amounts at different times. you will need to LOOK and FEEL your dog regularly to keep an eye on its weight.

Think of what a prey animal is (think of a bunny or similar) and get a handle on the different proportions and parts of an animal - how much is bone, how much is meat, how much are organs. they are the basic ratios for you to aim for over time (remember that if a pack is feasting on the deer they may only get the haunch meat one day, and the rib bones another - refer to Balance over time)

If you wish to feed things such as veggies etc, remember that these do not make up the bulk of a dogs diet. They are an extra that you may or may not choose to give.

Hope that helps a little?

[Guest Tess32]

What I have started buying is boiler chickens - cost me $3.00 so I cut it in half and each dog's meal is $1.50

[~Anne~]

Explanation times with the wolves theory. :D

Someone has stated that domestic dogs share 98% of their dna with wolves. Yes?

Therefore, wolves and dogs must be very alike. Yes?

Did you know that humans share 99% of their dna with chimps?

Given that fact, they share an even closer bond with us then dogs do with wolves. Do you believe that we have the same requirements as chimpanzees?

Using such reasoning, it has been estimated that the last common ancestor of humans and chimpanzees (with whom we share 99 percent of our genes) lived five million years ago.

Source: taken from a paper written by Bioinformatician Bernhard Haubold of the Max Planck Institute of Chemical Ecology.

[Guest Tess32]

Here's an interesting link.

http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/136/7/1927S

[espinay2]

Dogs and wolves are MUCH closer than people and chimps. Dogs and wolves are both classified as Canis Lupus - they are in fact the same species and can interbreed readily. Wolf/dog crosses are reasonably common in the US. I am yet to see a human crossed with a chimp (though some times I think some people come close ;-) ). Their digestive tracts, on scientific examination, are the same - EXACTLY the same.

[~Anne~]

Dogs and wolves are MUCH closer than people and chimps. Dogs and wolves are both classified as Canis Lupus - they are in fact the same species and can interbreed readily. Wolf/dog crosses are reasonably common in the US. I am yet to see a human crossed with a chimp (though some times I think some people come close ;-) ). Their digestive tracts, on scientific examination, are the same - EXACTLY the same.

Your source for this info?

There are several species as far as I am aware that are able to interbeed. As for chimps and humans? I am not sure, I have not ever seen anything written about this.

Thanks Tess, interesting indeed. It favours discussion on cats but makes some relevant point about the time frame and evolution of the domestic dog.

So far, the articles that I have read and the arguments I have seen still haven't convinced me that the domestic dog of today should be treated and or compared to the wolf or its ancestory when it comes to specifics of feeding and other matters. Whilst I can agree that a diet specific for a canine is ultimately better (as oppsoed to people thinking they are little humans and should eat the processed crap some humans eat) I remain unconvinced that their diet should be based on wolves. The wolf and the domestic dog in my view are similar but not the same. :D

[Joypod]

Explanation times with the wolves theory. :D

Someone has stated that domestic dogs share 98% of their dna with wolves. Yes?

Therefore, wolves and dogs must be very alike. Yes?

Did you know that humans share 99% of their dna with chimps?

Given that fact, they share an even closer bond with us then dogs do with wolves. Do you believe that we have the same requirements as chimpanzees?

Using such reasoning, it has been estimated that the last common ancestor of humans and chimpanzees (with whom we share 99 percent of our genes) lived five million years ago.

Source: taken from a paper written by Bioinformatician Bernhard Haubold of the Max Planck Institute of Chemical Ecology.

Hmm, not strictly correct Puggles. Maybe have a read here: http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2070

[Joypod]

Dogs and wolves are MUCH closer than people and chimps. Dogs and wolves are both classified as Canis Lupus - they are in fact the same species and can interbreed readily. Wolf/dog crosses are reasonably common in the US. I am yet to see a human crossed with a chimp (though some times I think some people come close ;-) ). Their digestive tracts, on scientific examination, are the same - EXACTLY the same.

Your source for this info?

There are several species as far as I am aware that are able to interbeed. As for chimps and humans? I am not sure, I have not ever seen anything written about this.

Thanks Tess, interesting indeed. It favours discussion on cats but makes some relevant point about the time frame and evolution of the domestic dog.

So far, the articles that I have read and the arguments I have seen still haven't convinced me that the domestic dog of today should be treated and or compared to the wolf or its ancestory when it comes to specifics of feeding and other matters. Whilst I can agree that a diet specific for a canine is ultimately better (as oppsoed to people thinking they are little humans and should eat the processed crap some humans eat) I remain unconvinced that their diet should be based on wolves. The wolf and the domestic dog in my view are similar but not the same.

Domestic dogs and wolves have been bred and produced fertile offspring.

Edited to say sorry I'm just doubling up on what others are saying. :D

Edited February 20, 2008 by Joypod

[Guest Tess32]

What else to basis natural dog nutrition on than other similar carnivores? Not just the wolf is taken into account.

[~Anne~]

Hmm, not strictly correct Puggles. Maybe have a read here: http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2070

The link doesn't work?? I copied and pasted it anyway.

The article you have quoted from uses research from 1967 and is a website devoted to christina beleifs, not scientific beliefs. It is only natural they would discount the theory as they believe that humans were a 'creation of God' and not an evolutionary species.

Research, as late as 2002 states;

The latest twist in the debate over how much DNA separates humans from chimpanzees suggests we are so closely related that chimps should not only be part of the same taxonomic family, but also the same genus.

The new study found that 99.4 percent of the most critical DNA sites are identical in the corresponding human and chimp genes. With that close a relationship, the two living chimp species belong in the genus Homo, says Morris Goodman of Wayne State University in Detroit.

Source: New Scientist Journals "Chimps are human, gene study implies" 19 May 2003

What else to basis natural dog nutrition on than other similar carnivores? Not just the wolf is taken into account.

As a basis yes. I guess my point is that people who say that dogs are descendants of wolves and should be fed like a wolf are incorrect in my opinion. The same goes for comparing a dogs behaviour to that of a wolf in the wild. Lets put it this way... I will continue to let my dogs through doorways first if they desire and I will feed them usually before I eat, and I will feed my bottom of the pack dog before the alpha

Given that I am not a scientist, nor do I have a 100% complete grasp on genetics, these are all only my personal thoughts and beliefs about feeding dogs.

I do continue to learn though and my views are always altering as I learn new things. :D

[Joypod]

Hmm, not strictly correct Puggles. Maybe have a read here: http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2070

The link doesn't work?? I copied and pasted it anyway.

The article you have quoted from uses research from 1967 and is a website devoted to christina beleifs, not scientific beliefs. It is only natural they would discount the theory as they believe that humans were a 'creation of God' and not an evolutionary species.

Research, as late as 2002 states;

The latest twist in the debate over how much DNA separates humans from chimpanzees suggests we are so closely related that chimps should not only be part of the same taxonomic family, but also the same genus.

The new study found that 99.4 percent of the most critical DNA sites are identical in the corresponding human and chimp genes. With that close a relationship, the two living chimp species belong in the genus Homo, says Morris Goodman of Wayne State University in Detroit.

Source: New Scientist Journals "Chimps are human, gene study implies" 19 May 2003

What else to basis natural dog nutrition on than other similar carnivores? Not just the wolf is taken into account.

As a basis yes. I guess my point is that people who say that dogs are descendants of wolves and should be fed like a wolf are incorrect in my opinion. The same goes for comparing a dogs behaviour to that of a wolf in the wild. Lets put it this way... I will continue to let my dogs through doorways first if they desire and I will feed them usually before I eat, and I will feed my bottom of the pack dog before the alpha

Given that I am not a scientist, nor do I have a 100% complete grasp on genetics, these are all only my personal thoughts and beliefs about feeding dogs.

I do continue to learn though and my views are always altering as I learn new things.

Goodness Puggles you're right. ...about the link not working and that site! I didn't actually read the entire article. I skimmed it and thought it was backing up the point I was trying to make about us actually being quite similar physiologically to chimps. I didn't realise it was a christian site... not that there's anything wrong with that but still, it wasn't quite what I thought it was. That'll teach me not to read an entire article before posting a link... umm, that doesn't work... :D

[aranyoz]

Here is an interesting link http://rawfed.com/myths/ it discusses the many myths that surround raw feeding. should be useful information for anyone considering a prey style diet.

[Guest Tess32]

What else to basis natural dog nutrition on than other similar carnivores? Not just the wolf is taken into account.

As a basis yes. I guess my point is that people who say that dogs are descendants of wolves and should be fed like a wolf are incorrect in my opinion. The same goes for comparing a dogs behaviour to that of a wolf in the wild. Lets put it this way... I will continue to let my dogs through doorways first if they desire and I will feed them usually before I eat, and I will feed my bottom of the pack dog before the alpha

Given that I am not a scientist, nor do I have a 100% complete grasp on genetics, these are all only my personal thoughts and beliefs about feeding dogs.

I do continue to learn though and my views are always altering as I learn new things. :D

Dogs *are* descendents of wolves

http://www.idir.net/~wolf2dog/wayne2.htm

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/200...t-obb111402.php

etc.

It's not up for debate as is the chimp/human connections but the idea that dogs could have come from jackals etc has pretty much been proven incorrect.

I agree with you about the behaviour aspect, I think the selective breeding of dogs has definitely changed their behaviour enough that it's ridiculous to assume they are exactly like wolves, but I see no evidence to suggest that there would be any difference in the TYPE of food they should naturally eat, as opposed to just "how much" and "when".

[~Anne~]

Dogs *are* descendents of wolves

Yes sorry, my answer isn't really clear is it. :D I wasn't debating that point. I firmly believe that they did desend from wolves.

I just don't place as much importance on that evolutionary link that some advocates of behaviour training and raw feeding do.

Anyway Tess... you know me... Ilike to debate

Edited February 20, 2008 by Puggles

[Amstaff Shane]

To be honest guys, the fact is that dogs are carnivores and they did, as tested by scientists via DNA link, descend from Wolves. Based on DNA evidence, the wolf ancestors of modern dogs diverged from other wolves about 100,000 years ago, and dogs were domesticated from those wolf ancestors about 15,000 years ago. This date would make dogs the first species to be domesticated by humans. Also, a dogs internal system is almost exact to that of a wolf, again scientifcally tested and confirmed. Let's put that to rest once and for all.

Wolves in the wild eat meat as a primary, as do other carnivores, and they also don't grow their own carrots/peas/potatoes or put mashed up content into a tin can and store it for later. At the end of the day, this thread is for those who are interested in a raw feed diet and want to know more about what types of meat to feed their dogs, how to start, what quantity they can base their buying and feeding on, and overall just healthy, experienced information from members of this forum.

Thanks to those of you whom have posted regarding information about raw feeding. I will collate this info and we'll try to compile a decent thread to help get others started.

Edited February 20, 2008 by Amstaff Shane

[~Anne~]

Thanks to those of you whom have posted regarding information about raw feeding. I will collate this info and we'll try to compile a decent thread to help get others started.

A decent thread? :D

Are you seriously that naive or lacking in forethought, that you believe ANY thread will only contain information you want?

Last time I looked this was a public forum. Threads RARELY stay exactly to the point of a topic. Since when were you made judge, jury and executioner on what is allowed to be discussed in any thread?

The discussion has been interesting and many have added in links that are educational and thought provoking.

[Amstaff Shane]

Thanks to those of you whom have posted regarding information about raw feeding. I will collate this info and we'll try to compile a decent thread to help get others started.

A decent thread? :D

Are you seriously that naive or lacking in forethought, that you believe ANY thread will only contain information you want?

Last time I looked this was a public forum. Threads RARELY stay exactly to the point of a topic. Since when were you made judge, jury and executioner on what is allowed to be discussed in any thread?

The discussion has been interesting and many have added in links that are educational and thought provoking.

Urrrr, there will be two threads. This one is for discussion, and the other thread that I will eventually be compiled (using information regarding raw feeding from this thread) which will be one that can only be edited by mods and a handful of people. I am not naive or lacking in forethought. If you read my original post, you'll understand what the overall aim is. It is to get people started on a raw diet, not debate where dogs came from and how humans are 99% genetically the same as chimpanzees.

I never said I was judge, jury and executioner. I created the thread and I would *prefer* if it stayed on topic. Yes, it's a public forum, I am not "forcing" anyone to stay on topic, however it's more beneficial if it did so people don't have to read about chimpanzee chat.

I think my harmful request to stay on topic is fairly valid, and others would probably agree, bar you.

[~Anne~]

Apologies Amstaff Shane... I seem to be 'in the mood' tonight and is affecting my responses.

[DeltaCharlie]

-was paged to this thread :D-

Sorry if this isn't exactly what you were after for this thread. Its just the standard information I post whenever someone asks me about prey model diets, it gives basic information and people can then ask me more specific questions.

This is a sample weekly plan that I usually show people to give them an idea. It doesnt have to be strictly adhered to- thats the beauty of this diet, it just has to even out over time. If I have nothing but meat left over then thats what they get for a week and the next week I feed more bones. I would advise feeding the bones frozen at first as it means they have to chew through them properly as they are too cold to swallow whole. This should prevent them gulping them. I fed frozen bones to Delta from the day I brought her home at 8 weeks and I have never had a problem with her not chewing them properly.

Monday: BONES (chicken necks, wings, drumsticks; duck necks; turkey necks; lamb soup bones; kangaroo tails; ox tails; lamb flaps; ribs)

Tuesday: MEAT (a raw meat mince thing I get from a racing greyhound supplier near me. I usually get a beef/lamb/chicken mix but if Im short on money I get chicken mince. I try to get a different meat though as their bones meal is usually poultry based.)

Wednesday: MEAT

Thursday: MEAT

Friday: BONES (unless mondays bones had very little meat on them, then I feed meat again)

Saturday: 1/2 ORGANS (liver or kidney usually) 1/2 FISH (canned tuna/salmon/sardines/mackeral)

Sunday: 1/2 ORGANS 1/2 FISH (basically the other half of the packets from the night before)

Basically each day they should get 2-3% of their ideal body weight. For my dogs that is only about 350-400g per day. It doesnt seem like much but any more than that and they start putting on weight. Because everything that you are feeding them is useful they dont need to eat as much, hence less coming out the other end.

Basically a rough guide is to feed

10% organs

15% bones

75% meat

I also feed raw egg a few times a week (plus the shell crushed, its great for calcium) and yoghurt every so often. So long as you are also feeding fish weekly you shouldnt need to supplement their diet in any way. They get plenty of omega-3 (eggs and fish) and calcium (eggs and yoghurt) as well as all the good bacteria that yoghurt provides. Off the top of my head I cant think of the names of all the vitamins and minerals needed but I know that they are provided by this diet.

Judge the diet based on how they look and what their poo looks like:

- If they are putting on weight, feed less; if they are getting skinny feed more

- If their poo is black they need more bones, if it is white they need less bones

It has been a long time since I stuck to the certain food each day routine that I posted above. Some days it is easier to just open a can of tuna for them. I never remember to get the meat out of the freezer which doesnt bother them but if I am in a rush I dont have time to wait for them to eat a frozen chicken carcuss just because it is "bones" day.

I have this chart on my fridge. Every meal I write next to it what they had (c= chicken, f= fish, l= lamb, b=beef, k= kangaroo) so that I dont feed them chicken all week etc. I write breakfast on the left, dinner on the right, although they usually just get one meal as Im lazy so I write both the same time. Any extra stuff I added gets written down the bottom (e= egg, y= yoghurt). It is easy to keep track of what they have had this way and I dont double up too much.

As for the shopping list, I get most of my stuff from butchers or the greyhound supplier near me. Be careful to get human quality meat though (it can be packaged for pets, thats still okay). Pet mince can sometimes have a chemical added to stop it going off as quickly and this can make your dog very sick. Human grade food is not allowed to have this chemical added. Any scraps from a butcher etc is fine, I would just be wary about the pet mince in supermarkets etc (although they cost an arm and a leg anyway). Butchers will often mince up all the bits humans wouldnt eat and sell it to pet owners cheap so it is worth looking around to see what is available.

I pay 50c a kilo for chicken mince and about $1 a kilo for the beef/lamb/chicken mix. There is a chicken place near where I work that sells 5kg bags of carcusses for about $3; chicken liver, hearts, kidneys etc for about $1.50/kg, and things like chicken necks, wings, drumsticks about $1.50/kg. I can buy a months worth of food for 2 dogs and a cat and pay about $15, although I wouldn't feed only chicken.

I like to vary the meat sources but the only place I have found for non-chicken organs is the supermarket which can be a few dollars for 500g. Organs are probably the most expensive part of the diet, but still only cost a few dollars a week. I also get the canned fish from the supermarket (just the home brand stuff). Im sure the seafood places could help out but I dont like the smell in those places so I havent ever gone in and asked.

I usually get the bones from the butcher aswell. There is one near me that makes up 2kg bags of lamb flaps, shanks, and other completely edible bones and charges $1/bag. You just have to make sure you are getting bones that your dog can chew through, so no weight bearing bones like cow legs and stuff. Although they are good for chewing on, just not for dinner.

It seems like a lot of work and preparation but it really isnt very hard at all. I spent months researching before finally switching, then kicked myself for worrying so much about nothing. Once you get into a rhythm it really doesnt take much effort at all. Once a month I will buy everything I need for that month. I get home and spend about 30mins putting it all into individual portion freezer bags and put it in the freezer. Then each day I get it out and give it to the dogs.

At first I watched everything like a hawk ready to make any minor alterations. I weighed every single portion and made sure they were just right, I checked the poo daily, and I kept a close eye on the dogs. Then I realised how obvious it was if something wasnt right and how easy it was to fix. It really isnt as daunting as it first seems.

Check out these websites aswell

http://www.rawfed.com/myths/

http://www.rawfoodlife.com/raw_pets.htm

http://www.rawfeddogs.net/

http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html

http://www.kaossiberians.com/rawfeeding.htm

[Amstaff Shane]

That is a brilliant post DeltaCharlie, thankyou very much for sharing it. That is exactly the sort of informaton we are looking for! :D

I know that not everyone who currently feeds a raw/prey model diet will not be able to post what DeltaCharlie has, but if you would like to contribute to this thread, can you please post that sort of information in that layout, (e.g daily feedings)as it would make it easier to compile the information afterwards.

Beauty!

Edited February 20, 2008 by Amstaff Shane